Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[JigglyTuff]

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

Isn't one of the fundamental principles of feminism that women get to choose what they do with their own bodies

I'm not going to advocate for people to be able to sell their organs. That's the point.

"Isn't one of the fundamental principles of feminism that women get to choose what they do with their own bodies"

One of the fundamental principles of feminism is that women should not do things that are damaging to other women.

mousse

I don't think women should be prostitutes but I absolutely defend their right to make whatever decision they want with their own body.

I defend a woman's right to bodily autonomy, be that abortion, smoking while pregnant, contraception or prostitution.

My moral choices are mine and theirs belong to them. I don't and won't advocate some of these choices but women are not children who need other people to make moral decisions for them.

Men and the church have forced moral choices on women I am not going to follow in their footsteps.

What we need to do is make sure the choices are actual choices and punish those who exploit those choices. I think - hope - the Nordic model allows women (or people who work as prostitutes) to make that decision while punishing the people who wish to exploit them.

Do you defend their right to sell their organs?

Excuse the pun but that's a phoney argument. Selling organs is illegal.

We are talking about women's right to choose in a free society with equal rights under the law. It is within this context that I asked the question why does radfems subjective views on what it best for women trump my right as a woman to choose.

My choice my not be 'feminist' but having an equal right to choose is feminist.

Women can make any choices they want to. That does not make them feminist choices. And choosing to support women making non feminist choices is not a feminist thing to do.

Sorry. Very clumsy paragraph.

Excuse the pun but that's a phoney argument. Selling organs is illegal.

That's the entire point I'm trying to make. Why do you think that it's illegal? Why shouldn't you be able to do exactly what you want? It's your body?

I dont see how its a phoney argument; prostitution is illegal across most of the US, and there is a thriving worldwide organ trade.
Its not a healthy choice, it harms the individual who is selling their body, and it creates a culture of acceptance. That soon becomes a culture where we dont have to help people who are badly off as they can always sell themselves to survive.

Well said DJ

So far not one person has explained why Janet Mock was on the platform at the Women's March.

And not just child rape apologist Janet Mock, but the March also gave major roles to self-confessed trans rapist Cherno Biko and to Julia Serrano, who claims lesbians are bigots for not wanting to have sex with transwomen.

Deeply, deeply unimpressed.

You set people free to make their own decisions. Democracy: I don't agree with the way some people vote but that is their choice.
Feminism is about allowing people to make choices.

Society deems some choices to be too damaging so initiates controls. In relation to organ selling you don't penalise the donor you criminalise the medical staff, brokers and the buyers. Same as the Nordic model the purchaser is penalised.

The Nordic model is about supporting women who are making a choice that may well cause them long term damage. Similar analogy to the drug user, if you don't support people making these choices the damage is worse and they are unlikely to be in a position to make different choices.

Society deems some choices to be too damaging so initiates controls. In relation to organ selling you don't penalise the donor you criminalise the medical staff, brokers and the buyers. Same as the Nordic model the purchaser is penalised.

Yes.

But prostitution is not just damaging for the individual woman concerned. It's damaging for women as a whole and to society. And, actually, to men.

It amazes me that it is acceptable for a trans woman to speak at a women's march
Or be part of a feminist/breast feeding/any other group specifically for women
Trans needs and women's needs are totally different

Lots of choices arguably damage society. Social conservatives would argue that marital breakdown damages society but people still choose to to it.

Women's bodies have been the battle ground of oppression. What women do with their bodies and who they choose to have or not have sex with has,been controlled by men.

It is not liberation if women now tell women who they can have sex with, it is another form of social control.

Women get to make their own decisions even if I might not agree with those decisions.

Caveat: as always when talking about prostitution this applies to women born into a developed country with free access to education and HR etc.

But prostitution is not just damaging for the individual woman concerned. It's damaging for women as a whole and to society. And, actually, to men

It is. It is ultimately degrading, debasing and dehumanizing.

It is ultimately degrading, debasing and dehumanizing

Lass I don't think anyone on this board would disagree with that comment.

My point is that feminism is about allowing women to choose. They need to have the freedom and education to make choices. If I don't like those choices so what?

Liberation means neither husbands or the church control women's bodies. Liberation means women get to choose. Other peoples opinions are irrelevant the individual woman in question gets to decide who she does, or does not, have sex with.

Other peoples opinions are irrelevant the individual woman in question gets to decide who she does, or does not, have sex with.

I guess that's the difference. I don't see it as having sex. I see it as being paid to be masturbated into, because you have little or no choice.

Prostitution is no better than encouraging homeless men to participate in degrading or humiliating activities for money.

Liberation means neither husbands or the church control women's bodies

Where did I , or any one else, refer to "husbands or the church"? Society consists of more than that. For the record I have no religious beliefs whatsoever.

Datun

I guess that's the difference. I don't see it as having sex. I see it as being paid to be masturbated into

Again, I don't disagree but a woman has a right to agree to this happening to her.

If you deny she is capable of making a free choice that sounds too much like the "women don't know their own minds" argument used by men about women.

And again caveats apply; this argument would not be reasonable in an undeveloped country or a country with legislation that disadvantages women.

Lass the husbands and church reference was a historical one. Historically men had legal access to women's bodies and the church has always made it it's business to control women.

If you deny she is capable of making a free choice that sounds too much like the "women don't know their own minds" argument used by men about women.

It might sound like that, but it isn't that, is it? I don't believe it's a slippery slope argument. I don't believe that roundly condemning prostitution on all levels will lead to further control of women's bodies. Because, their bodies are already being controlled, through prostitution.

In developed countries, prostitution leads to criminal activity including human trafficking. Even though these activities are already illegal. It also means women who are not working as prostitutes experience increased levels of harassment in red light districts.

We don't live in an ideal world. If you think women in the West are liberated, free, and able to make free choices then you haven't ever been poor or homeless.
People who support prostitution have a moral obligation to financially support charities that help women leave prostitution.

Historically men had legal access to women's bodies and the church has always made it its business to control women

I am perfectly aware of the historic points. They are no justification for prostitution.