Feminism as "let's be nice to everyone"

[OneFlewOverTheDodosNest]

I've started getting the rage with celebrities and women I know who like to virtue signal about the importance of feminism, but then make the definition of feminism so broad that's it's useless.

Some things I've seen lately that have made my teeth clench include "feminism works for all genders", "feminism is another word for equalism", "we can only make feminism work if we get men on side, so let's be nice to them" "here's a list of things feminism works on for men" etc etc.

One thing that REALLY pissed me off was Emma-Feminist-Watson (I know...) saying that boys not being able to cry was the "saddest thing" she could think of and it just really brought home to me how feminism has turned from this fight to liberate woman, to this platitude designed to show that you're nice but "don't worry, not in a threatening way". Seriously, you can't think of a single thing SADDER than a bloke being emotionally stunted?

How did it happen that mainstream feminism started focusing on the emotional needs of men, rather than the increasing rates of DV and sexual violence? How did the conversation shift from "we need to fund these shelters for women" to "we need to make sure men have refuges [that never get used]"?

I started reading the feminist board because I couldn't get what all the trans threads were about. I ignored them for ages. When I started reading, it took a while for me to 'get' it, with all the mental gymnastics, terminology and accusations of being bigoted.

When I hit #peaktrans, I read more and more on the feminist boards. It has been an education. I am certainly radfem on the TERF and SWERF angles. Less so on quotas and 'the patriarchy'. I see a lot of anti-feminism online and it concerns me.

My main concern is find ways to prevent women being assaulted/abused/raped/harassed/manipulated for being women. I don't care what anyone calls me. But if you don't care about women then you are not a feminist, of any flavour

In a world where women are free from oppression, my belief is that they should be free to transact with their bodies and minds as they see fit. As long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's right, the state has no role to play in regulating that.

The essential caveat is that women need to be free from oppression in order for that transaction to be legitimate and a valid choice.

So, yes in theory I have no issue with sex work, but in reality I don't support it in a world where women are forced into it and are simply a commodity. In those circumstances, which is our world today, the choice is neither free, valid or legitimate an I'm wholly opposed to the practise whilst still being able to argue a hypothetical.

I don't consider the above to be incompatible with women's liberation.

What, this? "How do you think it benefits feminism to dismiss liberal feminism and disregard/minimise the work done by liberal feminists as has been done on this thread Bert?"

I don't completely understand the question. But obviously it would be ridiculous to disregard/minimize any work done by anyone to further the cause of women, whatever their belief system. But I have to say that I am very uncomfortable with many of the beliefs held by liberal feminists. I do not think that the cause of women is best served by supporting the sex industry. I do not think that prostitution is a job like ant others freely entered into, or that pornography is anything but a vehicle for women to be exploited.

In theory I agree with you Blistory.

Even in theory I have a problem with sex work. Women are not a commodity for men to buy and sell.

Do you believe that liberal feminism is about "supporting the sex industry" Bert?

Ok, Bert, you have a different view.

Do you consider my views on sex work make me less of a feminist ? Or make my support of women less valid ?

Because the overall impression I get from threads like these are that liberal feminists aren't welcome at the table and directly harm women with their views.

AssignedMentalAtBirth

In theory I agree with you Blistory

My thanks Blistory_for articulating my beliefs. That's the great thing about working together, you do the work and I get to agree with you.

If sex work was any other job, we get to buy sex = result!

That was a joke. Joke. It was a joke.

Bert still interested in your personal journey. If it helps, one of my issues is that because of the type of person I am - aggressive, assertive, out spoken - I work best with boys. I spend a lot of time with very troubled young men. This means I do feel enormous sympathy for them. Dione works with women who have been abused and this informs her feminism. You?

Blistory, if it's not theory, then the view that the sex work is benign is dangerous to women. In some ideal world where women have all the choices, it might be different, but we don't live there

AssignedMentalAtBirth
My main concern is find ways to prevent women being assaulted/abused/raped/harassed/manipulated for being women

As I previously mentioned I work with troubled young men. So I am helping women by helping them but it does mean I spend a lot of time in 'the enemy camp' so to speak. I consider myself a feminist but my working life revolves around male issues so I do prioritise them. Am I a feminist?

AssignedMentalAtBirth

Men are involved in sex work too. Gay porn and heterosexual porn involve men. Yes, my working life has touched on this issue.

A lot of whataboutery going on there Mousse

Concentrate on the task at hand. We are talking feminism

Men are involved in sex work - yes. But when they are, ask yourself "who are the punters?" There are a tiny number of women interested in purchasing sex, but the vast majority of punters are men. Richer, more powerful men purchasing the bodies of the weaker and poorer - predominantly women, but also men and children. Ask yourself about the reality behind that much loved tabloid euphemism, the "rent boy". Yup, that's right, an underaged male child being exploited by paedophile men.

In all of this, overwhelmingly, it is men as the purchasers who are the problem.

If you don't acknowledge this statistical reality, you are telling yourself and us lies about what is involved in prostitution.

PricklyBall But when they are, ask yourself "who are the punters

Excellent point.

AssignedMentalAtBirth I know it is whatanoutery, my point was that is the reality of my working life and it informs my feminism. I am sympathetic to young men, it's my job. What aspects of your life inform and influence your feminism?

Mousse is that question a test to determine if people are doing feminism right, in your opinion? What's the right answer?

I have, several times, on this thread. Women not being assaulted, abused, raped, manipulated informs my feminism. Because I was and I wouldn't wish it on any other woman. Does that pass your test?

And does it explain why transactivists threatening me with rape doesn't quite make me inclined to accept penises in my gym locker room? I bet you will tell me why I am wrong though. Do my 'lived' rapes not compete with 'literal violence' of the 'misgendering' of transwomen?

And why I can't write a paragraph about this shit without having to use inverted commas

That was to Mousse

It is men who commodify sex. Whether they are buying women or young men.

I do not believe that the idea of women being commodities to be bought or sold is compatible with feminism.

My understanding is that liberal feminists believe that selling sex is a legitimate way of making a living. I do not believe this.

And no, once again, I am not prepared to give my CV.

AssassinatedBeauty

It's not a trick it's genuine interest. As I said I spend a lot of time in the 'enemy camp'. When I read about middle class women complaining about an issue I realise intellectually it is valid but after an emotional day I think "what the fuck do you know about being oppressed?". I know it is relativism but feelings are feelings. I suspect according to many I am doing feminism wrong because I gravitate towards these deeply troubled young men.

Dione works in the trenches of feminism and I am sure her life experiences would make compelling testimony.

I'm interested. I think sharing where our views come from would inform the theory.

AssignedMentalAtBirth absolutely your lived experiences help me do my job and inform my politics. I don't feel fear in a toilet when a man is in the next stall but you telling me about your life and your experiences makes me stop and consider my opinion.

It's not genuine interest when you make a value judgement about the response. You only value feminism that comes from a background like yours.

BertrandRussell

My understanding is that liberal feminists believe that selling sex is a legitimate way of making a living. I do not believe this

And you explain your reasoning, and you call them feminists. Feminists who you disagree with but feminists. You are under the same umbrella but you disagree.

There are some views that I am not prepared to share an umbrella with.

An opinion is not feminist because a woman expresses it.

AssassinatedBeauty
It's not genuine interest when you make a value judgement about the response. You only value feminism that comes from a background like yours

Absolutely not! God forbid I only value working class feminists, with politics degrees who shop at waitrose now! That would be next to useless.

MN is really important to me in pushing me outside my bubble. The boys I work with are potential abusers. If i am able to convey the depth of pain and life long suffering it may prevent more abuses. Please, please do not think I do not value your contributions.

Mousse

But for how long will it change your opinion? Will it be long enough to not call me or other women 'bigots' for fearing males when they are in vulnerable situation, like, for example, being undressed? In my experience on these boards, not long.

In my experience, most people, organisations, don't care. Which is why I have never been able to properly access any help. And actually, being asked 'why' by people like you. I don't talk about this generally and I'm obviously going to have to name change now. But in my opinion this attitude is the same as those who were neglected in Rotherham, Newcastle and all over the country. And I actually don't know your motivation at all