Feminism as "let's be nice to everyone"

[OneFlewOverTheDodosNest]

I've started getting the rage with celebrities and women I know who like to virtue signal about the importance of feminism, but then make the definition of feminism so broad that's it's useless.

Some things I've seen lately that have made my teeth clench include "feminism works for all genders", "feminism is another word for equalism", "we can only make feminism work if we get men on side, so let's be nice to them" "here's a list of things feminism works on for men" etc etc.

One thing that REALLY pissed me off was Emma-Feminist-Watson (I know...) saying that boys not being able to cry was the "saddest thing" she could think of and it just really brought home to me how feminism has turned from this fight to liberate woman, to this platitude designed to show that you're nice but "don't worry, not in a threatening way". Seriously, you can't think of a single thing SADDER than a bloke being emotionally stunted?

How did it happen that mainstream feminism started focusing on the emotional needs of men, rather than the increasing rates of DV and sexual violence? How did the conversation shift from "we need to fund these shelters for women" to "we need to make sure men have refuges [that never get used]"?

I thought she just said 'issues', Bert, without specifying.

I will go back and check.

NoLoveofMine

You can be concerned about the impact of seemingly minor things whilst also being well aware of major things. All sexism and outdated stereotyping is worth challenging

One can , but there are 2 schools of thought here. Challenge everything because it all makes a difference . If the little things are changed it will flow up to the bigger things; or concentrate on the major issues- challenge and deal with them and it will trickle down to the point the little things die out or are not important.

And challenging every minor thing, no matter how trivial , or even real, runs the risk of making you (general you , not "you") sound a bit unhinged and easier to dismiss when talking about the major issues.

Please, do something against your (internalized?) misogyny and develop some empathy for women.

Thank you. Especially when she's preaching in her holier than thou way about how we're not allowed to criticise anything other women who are pushing ideas which are objectively harmful to women say. How ironic.

Middle class women" can't be oppressed by men? Pure ignorance.

I have a slightly different school of thought which is that it's all worth challenging as it all has an impact in one way or another. For example, street harassment relative to rape could be judged as "minor" in comparison but still needs challenging and combating as it's on the same "spectrum" and impacts on the lives of so many girls and women in a number of ways. Likewise signs on toilets depicting a woman with a child and a man not are perpetuating stereotypes which are part of general messages being absorbed by children and harmful to girls and boys. That it could even seem "unhinged" is symptomatic of endemic sexism in my opinion. Challenging this kind of thing doesn't negate my ire at violence against women and girls. It's that which brought me to feminism in the first place but I still think other issues are worth fighting as well. It may also be more achievable for some to fight what can be deemed more minor sexism than rape and male violence against women and girls as a whole.

Wasn't the child stood next to the woman because both the women's toilets and the baby change room were in the same direction?

So my views are misogynistic. I am struggling with internalised misogyny.

This ^ and these types of comments are exactly my issue with FWR.

I have called myself a feminist since I was a child. I have studied the theories and can discuss it intellectually. I have stood up for women at work and in family situations. I have gone on marches. I have supported friends and institutions with my time and money. I have put my money where my mouth is time and again.

I make a comment based on how I felt at the end of a day that was harrowing. Other people face worse at work but the disclosure by someone I was fond of of some truly harrowing information, left me shocked. I am trying to explain how the impact of that emotional day in a truthful and honest way. I am trying to say sometimes emotions muddy your intellect and you make mistakes.

After that day - and similar days - some of the concerns on MN seem to lack perspective.

As I said I am aware intellectually that the concerns of someone in this country are very real but sometimes my emotions over ride that intellectual knowledge. I would like to be able to come to FWR for support.

Not only am I not supported I am condemned. Condemned by people who refuse to share their life experiences.

Please feel free to pick over the posts and point out how I am oppressing women with my internalised misogyny. This is such a supportive way to move the debate forward. No worries about FWR being too nice!

I don't know about that particular instance and have never previously commented on it. I had gathered otherwise from minimal reading but that doesn't negate my point which was about sexism generally not one specific sign.

You said I sounded like a man. You sound just like a man. Remember Richard Dawkins and his sneery "Dear Muslima" parody? That's you.

Ereshkigal
Middle class women" can't be oppressed by men? Pure ignorance

This is just offensive. Please quote exactly where I said this. Prove it.

This comment further proves my point about the lack of support.

(@JasmineGreen there's a whole other thread about it, but no, the baby change was apparently a separate area and there were additional baby change facilities in both the men's and women's toilets)

So my views are misogynistic

It was me who said that so don't try to pin them on this board as a whole. In my opinion your views on middle class women are misogynistic and utterly insulting. I have been restrained in how I've responded but your comments were abhorrent. You have no idea what any woman or girl may have been through and clearly have no interest in the fact being middle class doesn't stop a woman or girl from being at risk of misogynist male violence.

This is just offensive

You think "what the fuck would you know about oppression" about middle class women.

Mousse, like many, I don't want to share all of my harrowing personal experiences.

This is just offensive. Please quote exactly where I said this. Prove it.

It's an obvious paraphrasing of what you did say. I wasn't the only person to pick up on it.

VestalVirgin
You are aware, surely you must be, that once grown up, a male's risk to be raped is close to zero, provided he isn't in prison

Trafficked young people are at great risk of sexual exploitation. Young male asylum seekers are very vulnerable to sexual abuse. I can not give you details for which you should be grateful.

Again no hierarchy of grief all rape is awful.

This is such a supportive way to move the debate forward. No worries about FWR being too nice!

Stop trying to deflect. The vast majority have engaged with you in an entirely friendly manner. I've tempered my responses to be "nicer" because I certainly don't feel like being. As for "supportive", how supportive to be told someone thinks "what the fuck would you know about oppression" because I'm middle class.

It was me who said that so don't try to pin them on this board as a whole. In my opinion your views on middle class women are misogynistic and utterly insulting. I have been restrained in how I've responded but your comments were abhorrent. You have no idea what any woman or girl may have been through and clearly have no interest in the fact being middle class doesn't stop a woman or girl from being at risk of misogynist male violence.

It's not just you, I 100% agree with this post

All women and girls are vulnerable to rape, sexual abuse and worse because of being female.

I would be nicer if she hadn't repeatedly been personally insulting to me when I made general points.

Thank you Ereshkigal.

Toilet door signs, gender parties, are all part and parcel of sexism. Sexism in an extreme form leads to rape and the killing of women.

Just because one isn't as bad as the other, doesn't mean they aren't produced by the same attitude and viewpoint. Which is why they both need to be addressed.

This thread ran riot at one point. It might be mousse's tone which was a little inflammatory.

But I didn't get, from her comments, that the rape of young boys was a bigger problem than the rape of girls and women. In fact she said that the oppression of women was worse.

My take was that because she works in that environment, with these boy victims, the compare and contrast aspects of some sexism gets to her. But generally only when she has been mired in her work for the day. And despite agreeing, and understanding, that it's women who are oppressed by men and that feminism is for women.

I got my reasoning from this comment.

"As I said I realise that middle class women are raped and sexually harassed, but some of the boys I work with also have been and they have moved continent, and are living with the threat of more of the same. But it's not a competition. But women, as a class, suffer far more oppression. My point was I know this but after a difficult day I sometimes find it difficult to get bothered about toilets."

Although now I'm not sure whether the 'toilets' refers to the trans-debate, or the toilet signs.

And yes, it was the word 'but' that did the damage.

Although now I'm not sure whether the 'toilets' refers to the trans-debate, or the toilet signs.

I'm pretty sure she was referring to the trans debate as she has been dismissive of women's views about it on other threads.

*It's not a trick it's genuine interest. As I said I spend a lot of time in the 'enemy camp'. When I read about middle class women complaining about an issue I realise intellectually it is valid but after an emotional day I think "what the fuck do you know about being oppressed?". I know it is relativism but feelings are feelings. I suspect according to many I am doing feminism wrong because I gravitate towards these deeply troubled young men"

I will c&p: in this paragraph I use the term an issue.

After that day - and similar days - some of the concerns on MN seem to lack perspective

Oh I agree with that. My point is you picked one very bad thing to compare with another very bad thing- rather than say the M&S sign thread or the ever popular "how dare a shopkeeper call me love" threads.

I'm not sure what exactly you think that proves? It's still dismissive of women's oppression.