Feminism as "let's be nice to everyone"

[OneFlewOverTheDodosNest]

I've started getting the rage with celebrities and women I know who like to virtue signal about the importance of feminism, but then make the definition of feminism so broad that's it's useless.

Some things I've seen lately that have made my teeth clench include "feminism works for all genders", "feminism is another word for equalism", "we can only make feminism work if we get men on side, so let's be nice to them" "here's a list of things feminism works on for men" etc etc.

One thing that REALLY pissed me off was Emma-Feminist-Watson (I know...) saying that boys not being able to cry was the "saddest thing" she could think of and it just really brought home to me how feminism has turned from this fight to liberate woman, to this platitude designed to show that you're nice but "don't worry, not in a threatening way". Seriously, you can't think of a single thing SADDER than a bloke being emotionally stunted?

How did it happen that mainstream feminism started focusing on the emotional needs of men, rather than the increasing rates of DV and sexual violence? How did the conversation shift from "we need to fund these shelters for women" to "we need to make sure men have refuges [that never get used]"?

AssignedMentalAtBirth

Clearly if you are not comfortable don't say anything. You are right organisations don't care but lots of people in organisations do care deeply. My motivation is of no interest to you, why should it be. But scandals like Rotherham etc were uncovered by people within the system.

I am working to prevent other incidences like Rotherham by challenging attitudes within some communities. Please be assured there have been days when I have come home, read something on a thread and gone back in to work fighting the good fight.

I am very sorry you don't feel able to access help, I wish I could do or say something to support you. All I can say is I am trying my best to do what I can.

Moussemoose wrote - "I read about middle class women complaining about an issue I realise intellectually it is valid but after an emotional day I think "what the fuck do you know about being oppressed?""

I hope you are not trying to suggest that middle class women are not raped, are not sexually harassed, do not suffer domestic violence, don't lose their jobs when they become pregnant, aren't paid less than men they work with, etc.

Then I think your understanding is wrong Bert. Some might agree with it given the provisos Blistory has outlined, others support a harm reduction approach as opposed to an abolitionist one. And some do support abolition. As I previously said, liberal feminists are not a hive mind.

Who are you unwilling to share your umbrella with?

Ok Mousse. But please know that I am on the feminist boards because of the trans ideology. It's dangerous. It really doesn't take much to see the implications of gender self identity. The 'sex work' concept is female liberalism head up arse too

I really object to not being taken seriously or being called a bigot until I tell people that I have been abused and raped.

vesuvia

As I said I realise that middle class women are raped and sexually harassed, but some of the boys I work with also have been and they have moved continent, and are living with the threat of more of the same. But it's not a competition. But women, as a class, suffer far more oppression. My point was I know this but after a difficult day I sometimes find it difficult to get bothered about toilets.

But then someone like AssignedMentalAtBirth posts about her trauma and I find perspective. I value that perspective greatly.

I make mistakes, I change my mind. This is not a weakness I am happy to consider my mistakes and then move forward. You don't have to find one totally correct point of view and then stick with it forever.

DioneTheDiabolist I am willing to share your umbrella

But it IS a competition. Because men who say they are women say they are more in danger from men than women are from men. And everybody gushes that they are right, despite the fact that statistics completely disprove this. And then anyone who says they are a woman will be allowed to see women and girls naked and the females, in turn will be forced to see naked male bodies while naked.

There is thread going on in AIBU about someone feeling scared about a strange man when she is running. She is getting serious abuse. Why? It has been one of the the triumphs of my life to be able to run off road. But I still do it with a big fucking dog. I am not at all unusual in being frightened of men and I have good reason to be

I also have a wonderful husband and sons. My husband probably saved my life, so the men-hating accusation fuckers can fuck right off.

Also been told that I have to change my name because of complaints. I'm assuming it's because of the 'mental' bit. Sorry to anyone offended, but it's a bit of a jokey term in West Scotland.

Will be name changing tomorrow, I guess

I'm coming over all Rhianna.

"As I said I realise that middle class women are raped and sexually harassed, but some of the boys I work with also have been and they have moved continent, and are living with the threat of more of the same."

I realize you can't possibly mean this, but that sounds as if you are dismissing the countless poor, vulnerable working class women who are suffering at the hands of men all over the world-including in this country....................

"As I said I realise that middle class women are raped and sexually harassed, but some of the boys I work with also have been and they have moved continent, and are living with the threat of more of the same."

I don't understand this sentence. Not trying to be funny or anything but what point are you making? What point is the "but" making? There is no connection between the 2 bad things. E.g re-writing it using 2 things I really care about.

"As I said I realise women in Northern Ireland can't access abortions but the Chinese still keep caged bears and torture them for bile"

When I read about middle class women complaining about an issue I realise intellectually it is valid but after an emotional day I think "what the fuck do you know about being oppressed?

That's really quite obnoxious when you have absolutely no idea what individual women may or may not have experienced. It's really you that sounds like a dismissive misogynistic man when you say things like that.

As I said I spend a lot of time in the 'enemy camp'. When I read about middle class women complaining about an issue I realise intellectually it is valid but after an emotional day I think "what the fuck do you know about being oppressed?". I know it is relativism but feelings are feelings. I suspect according to many I am doing feminism wrong because I gravitate towards these deeply troubled young men

It was an attempt to be honest and explore the complexity of living and working in the 'enemy camp'. Clearly my experience of having a harrowing day and dealing with deeply damaged and traumatised young people is common. Clearly you are able to process your emotions after crying over you tea in a better way than me. I must be the only person who has conflicting emotions.

Lass the two are connected by my job. I work with these young people and then come home and read MN, that is the connection.

I do not want to get into a relativist competition but you must be able to see that the issues of middle class women in the UK, no matter how painful to them, can seem less traumatic than some one (male or female) who has been trafficked into the UK as a child. I will not give you details to 'prove' my point but be assured these young people have suffered greatly.

But as I say I intellectually know a hierarchy of grief is pointless, but it doesn't always feel like that. I know competing to be the most feminist is pointless. Messy human emotions get in the way.

While I am sure better feminists than me never have any conflicting issues I would like a space where I can admit my weakness and get support and help and not be condemned for my poor feminism.

Moussemoose

That was a good post, in my opinion. You are, without doubt, at coalface amongst people affected by trauma. And I can easily comprehend how distressing that is.

I can also understand how, because feminism is female centred, it would give rise to a conflict in you, after your day at work.

I don't think there's much of a disagreement here, to be honest.

I can see how you could more easily resolve or address your conflict, if feminists talk about rape, murder, prostitution, etc.

But might have slightly more trouble with it, if they're talking about the signs on a toilet door.

The compare and contrast aspect would be an issue. Despite, intellectually, realising that they are all part and parcel of the same thing.

"I do not want to get into a relativist competition but you must be able to see that the issues of middle class women in the UK, no matter how painful to them, can seem less traumatic than some one (male or female) who has been trafficked into the UK as a child"
Of course. But your precious posts suggest that only young men are trafficked into the UK as children.....- you are comparing trafficked and abused young men and middle class women. I don't understand why you are suggesting those are the only two available categories......

Previous, not precious.

I do not want to get into a relativist competition but you must be able to see that the issues of middle class women in the UK, no matter how painful to them, can seem less traumatic than some one (male or female) who has been trafficked into the UK as a child. I will not give you details to 'prove' my point but be assured these young people have suffered greatly

BertrandRussell this is the quote to which you refer please note I make it clear I work with - male and female - young people. I also use the term 'young people'. I tend to work with young men but not exclusively.

You ask why these two categories Lass had already asked that and I had already clarified:
Lass the two are connected by my job. I work with these young people and then come home and read MN, that is the connection

In terms of the thread and being too 'nice' one of my points is that women cone in FWR looking for support and it is not there. Datum understood my difficulties and replied in a supportive way. Others did not.

My feminism is not perfect. I can not aspire to be right all the time. I think things and do things that intellectually I know aren't right but emotions take over. Lots of women are struggling to be good enough feminists. When women like this come on FWR wouldn't support be better than errrr less than supportive posts?

I think perhaps based on the insistence of some posters that FWR is a warm, friendly place I will continue to visit but I might lower my expectations for support

I'm sorry, mousse- but until that post you referred only to working with young men. I'm not going to c&p. But I find it interesting that you are now referring to "young people".

Mousse, you've seem to be saying you find it hard to to see the issues of middle class women as being that important.

But at the same time you want support with what is essentially a stereotypical middle class issue i.e. the impact of professional observation of the suffering of others.

It doesn't make you a bad feminist to work with mostly young men, or to be concerned about their situation as a priority for you personally. People generally have more than one social issue they're concerned about. There's obviously overlap between issues, but not everything in someone's life is going to be just feminism.

"As I said I realise that middle class women are raped and sexually harassed, but some of the boys I work with also have been and they have moved continent, and are living with the threat of more of the same."

WTF?

You are aware, surely you must be, that once grown up, a male's risk to be raped is close to zero, provided he isn't in prison?

And you surely are also aware, that the men who rape middle class white women in the UK do so repeatedly, and often even specifically target traumatized women who have been victimized by male rapists before?

The "threat of more of the same" is, at the very least in the long term, more real for those middle class women you so detest. Unless you mean "more moving continent".

Please, do something against your (internalized?) misogyny and develop some empathy for women.

You can help boys without trampling on women.

"You can help boys without trampling on women."

This.

Being middle class didn't stop street harassment starting for me when I walked to school in uniform one day. Being middle class doesn't stop me being threatened by men and boys on the street, sexually explicit harassment, rape jokes, being objectified by boys and men, being demeaned by misogyny, suffering sexual harassment and in the cases of friends assault at parties. Being middle class doesn't stop girls or women of colour suffering misogyny and racism.

And, the reason those comments most got to me, being middle class didn't stop my friend being murdered by a man unknown to her at the age of 14 simply for being female. I am trying to tone this post down but I found that comment so enraging I had to post. As has been said, the poster has no idea what someone may have been through. To think being middle class shields women and girls from violent misogyny shows a complete lack of care or concern. The risks all women and girls face are due to our sex, misogynist violence.

I have received huge support here but thoughtless comments such as the one which prompted this post I find quite upsetting.

But might have slightly more trouble with it, if they're talking about the signs on a toilet door

Thanks Datun, I can see that , but that isn't what Mousse was comparing. I still don't see what the "but" was supposed to achieve

As I said I realise that middle class women are raped and sexually harassed, but some of the boys I work with also have been and they have moved continent, and are living with the threat of more of the same."

Had she said something like "middle class women are making an issue over M&S painting a stick figure on a toilet door pink ffs" then fine (and I'd agree with that)

You can be concerned about the impact of seemingly minor things whilst also being well aware of major things. All sexism and outdated stereotyping is worth challenging.

LassWiTheDelicateAir

I realise mousse didn't specifically make that comparison. I may have been reaching, but I detected a tone to her post that I responded to.

"I realise mousse didn't specifically make that comparison."

She didn't. That would have been completely understandable. She made the comparison with middle class woman being raped and sexually abused.

I don't think it would have been understandable anyway, it's a regular silencing tactic used against women and girls objecting to any kind of sexism. However it was deeply unpleasant due to it being about middle class women suffering violence purely do to their sex. Extremely dismissive and in my opinion misogynistic.