Male feminism

[HardToFindAUsername]

Hi. I'm a bloke (sorry) with 2 sons and a daughter.
I want the best for each of them, obviously.

I've got into an internet bubble where I'm seeing a lot of anti-"rabid"-feminist messages, and I'd like to check whether it's un-balancing my views. I've had a read of a few threads on here and I'm actually worried that my views may perhaps be correct.

Before you read on can I stress that this is a genuine attempt to understand. My current views probably aren't yours, but aren't meant to offend.

As things stand this is what I perceive as feminism:

1. There's a lot of "this [obscure example of something being male] is yet more misogyny". Just because a crash test dummy is male doesn't demonstrate a hatred of women.
2. There's lop-sided comparisons of "the advantages of being male" to the "disadvantages of being female". Pay gap is a good one, I see this as mostly a "personal career preference" issue (and perhaps a "parent penalty")
3. There's loads of generalised criticism, lots of which isn't answerable in the same sound-bite way the criticism is voiced. It comes across to me as wanting to complain, not wanting to improve things.
4. There's no single version of feminism, so some or all of the above may not apply to any individual.

I'm fully expecting some abuse here, which I can take fine, but I am genuinely trying to work out if I should be (more of) a feminist for my daughter's sake, or if the "issues" are being blown out of proportion.

I dont really know what might persuade me (if you even care to do so, I'm not assuming you do/should) - maybe there's an actual situation where (if some part of feminist agenda was in effect at the time) you can describe how your life would be different?

This is a genuine attempt to understand, and whilst I may be challenging I promise to listen and try to see any points you put forward.

Fire away

Do you think your daughter is equally good at maths as your sons?

The issues aren't being blown out of proportion. Hth. Your points are very vague, and don't seem to have examples, so it comes across as quite goady.

Why don't you read some feminist theory? That will be much more beneficial than just listening to people on the internet. In the same way you've listened to anti feminists.
I don't think anyone thinks crash test dummies are male or an example of misogyny.
I think it is important you understand how patriarchy will impact your daughters lives if you wish to be a father that doesn't further disadvantage them.

There are basically 2 schools of feminism, Radical and Liberal.

• Liberal feminists want equality for women.
• Radical means 'root'. Get to the root of the problem. Radical feminists say of you have to ask for equality it shows there is a power imbalance, and changing a few laws isnt going to fix things when the system itself is broken.

We are happy to say society is not fit for purpose, and we can make something thats for humans not money or power.

1. If seat belts are built for people with a male figure and no breasts, then they may not work so well for women. Gym equipment is made for men can can be dangerous for us to use. Medicines are tested more often on men, as women have fluctuating hormones and we skew the results.

These can more correctly be termed the result of patriarchy rather than misogyny.

2. No, its not a personal choice, and its not just the parenting gap. There is a gender pay gap. this is one example; 12% pay gap and fewer female professors being hired. www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/gender-pay-gap-universities-uk-not-close-female-professorships-rate-sex-male-a7757441.html

A better example of a disadvantage would be healthcare and abortion access. Why is abortion a legal and political hot potato, and not a health issue?
Or the financial cost of rape, which is around $1,000 in the US. Or the cost to women of fleeing domestic violence, it affects their career so they become more financially vulnerable just when they least need it.

3. One complaint I would make is why dont men pay for mens rape crisis or DV shelters? Shelters and services cater for both men and women, but women are taxed on Tampax, and have to fundraise.

Maybe this will give you a starting point to a wider search and some more answers.

You don't seem to get the complexity of feminist issues.

Feminism is at root the belief that men and women should be equal.

My personal feminist view gets pissed off at people focusing on "crash test dummy was male so.." sorts of complaints.

I'm more bothered by the fact that there is a fatherhood bonus and a motherhood penalty.
I'm annoyed that people still consider the pay gap to be an acceptable price you pay for having a child (or not even having one!).
I dislike the idea that women are the ones who disproportionately end up working a double shift when they work because they still do lots of house stuff.
I'm annoyed that when I started my new job one of the board jokes that I better not be leaving or getting pregnant like everyone else (because being a career woman and a parent is just so fucking difficult to get their heads around even though loads of senior people in my work are women with kids... I don't get it either).
I'm bothered that boys are fobbed off as being poor at literacy because they are boys and are steered towards being "practical" in schools, whilst girls seem to get the message that sport and STEM aren't for them by the middle of primary schools.
I'm bothered that excellent dad's are patronised and end up being told they are "babysitting" when they take their kids alone.
I'm annoyed that some people congratulate men for doing anything around the house when actually most men will probably happily do it.

I'm fed up with the idea that even though women work, house and kids are still their mental work to sort.
And then I get frustrated when people tell me they don't think feminism is worth having.

1. There's a lot of "this [obscure example of something being male] is yet more misogyny". Just because a crash test dummy is male doesn't demonstrate a hatred of women.

Interesting example. No, crash test dummies not being female in form doesn't demonstrate a hatred of women, it merely demonstrates that the people who do the testing either;

a) don't think women go in cars
or
b) think that "people" means men.

Maybe not misogyny per se, but also not seeing women as human beings, just men.

2. There's lop-sided comparisons of "the advantages of being male" to the "disadvantages of being female". Pay gap is a good one, I see this as mostly a "personal career preference" issue (and perhaps a "parent penalty")

Men are parents too, you say you're a parent, where is your parent penalty if the wage gap is a penalty fro being a parent? You also appear not to understand the concept of the wage gap, it's not because women end up working in Tesco and men are chair of ICI, because it looks at like for like, so male lawyers vs female lawyers. Hope that clears up your confusion.

3. There's loads of generalised criticism, lots of which isn't answerable in the same sound-bite way the criticism is voiced. It comes across to me as wanting to complain, not wanting to improve things.

Generalised criticism of what? The way some men behave? Rape? Domestic violence? Porn? Prostitution? Cat Calling? You're going to have to be specific if you want a proper response. IF you want one.

4. There's no single version of feminism, so some or all of the above may not apply to any individual.

This is true. There is feminism, which is a political movement which seeks the liberation of women from the oppression of Patriarchy and then there's some lovely groups of well meaning people who like glitter and unicorns.

a) don't think women go in cars
or
b) think that "people" means men.

Or c) women aren't worth testing for and are expendible

Pay gap is a good one, I see this as mostly a "personal career preference" issue (and perhaps a "parent penalty")

Op - come on. Why is it my 'personal career preference' when I was a civil engineer to get paid £10k less than the man who I was more experienced and qualified than?

I want to believe this is sincere but you don't think it's actually important that crash test dummies are sized for men?! I bet you fucking would if you were 5 '2 and weighed 7 stone. You'd also care if your family couldn't recognise it when you had a heart attack because only the female symptoms had been publicised.

All of the little obscure things come together to screw over women. Maybe you don't see each individual act as misogyny but if men in charge (and they're most men, coincidence I'm sure) don't account for women it means they think men are the default human and women are just the faulty human.

The fact that you come here and ask for feminists to do your home work so you'll try to be more interested in women's rights (as a father of a daughter!) says it all really.

Oh and parent penalty? As long as women are the ones who give birth and feed children they are always more likely to take time off. And as long as men do a fraction of house work women will always take the hit to their career rather than do two jobs.

Ask yourself:

Do women really like doing chores, like properly love it?

Do women enjoy being sexually harassed?

Do they enjoy having their pain taken less seriously than a man?

Do they prefer to get paid less per hour?

If the answer is probably no to these questions you have to wonder why they are the case.

Cripes, that was quick.

I think the advice to read up on this is good, there's a lot here and much potential for misunderstanding.

I do appreciate all your replies, and will re-read them all.
Everyone's spent so much time replying to me it feels rude not to continue, but I think messages aren't going to work very well. I promise I will read more.

@SweetGrapes. My daughter's the best at maths (and, by a smallish margin, school in general) of the three of them. We do algebra puzzles for fun.

@SpongeBob. Sorry, I didnt mean to sound goady, but I do think I'm starting from a position of "anti" rather than neutral and that probably came across.

@ItsBetter. That crash test dummy thing was in this forum! Patriarchy is tough one for me... I maybe don't understand your meaning of patriarchy, but nobody thinks I'm the "head" of the household, and women aren't excluded from power etc. I just don't see it. You also don't mention how patriarchy might impact my sons, which is kinda what I mean about feminism not seeming to me to be about equality.

@DJ. Wow, lots in there, thank you. Genuinely - thank you.
Point 1 - Yep, I get all that. I dont know the medical bit, that sounds odd, but I'm not disputing what you say.
Point 2 - I dont dispute that there's a pay gap, but what the causes of that are. I read (but will re-read) the article you linked, but could it just be that female professors are leaving (and therefore we ought to try to understand why). The abortion thing is I suspect a result of religion, but the I'm not sure how the cost applies to a pay gap.
Point 3 - That's really interesting. I had testicular cancer a while back, and whilst having NHS treatment was hugely aware of the fund raising for breast cancer (which I admit affects men too, in smaller numbers) and none for "male cancers". I get your point about tampon tax and men's services - I think that was probably meant to be constructively challenging to me - I dont think we'll agree on that!

@MaisyPops. Again, lots there, thank you. I think I hit a nerve, and while we dont agree totally (we do on lots!) I didnt intend to annoy you - I was probably niaive there.

• Fatherhood bonus/Motherhood penalty. I believe there is one too - but possibly not in the same way. One partner (commonly the female, in a hetro relationship) takes a penalty, whilst the other is commonly required to find a "bonus". My partner dropped her salary, I had to make up that financial gap - that meant travelling further, taking on more stressful jobs, seeing my kids less. I dont think of that as a bonus. For our 3rd child I was out of work, and spent some months with her (until we couldnt manage financially any more) - I cant describe the regret that I didnt do that with the boys (it wasnt an option then). Most men never even realise what they missed.
• That "joke" from your board was out of line. I expect it was a bloke - I'd apologise for him, but I dont know if he actually would be ashamed if he knew.
• The housework, mental load, "congrats you cleaned!" are related IMO - put simply I think us blokes need to look at it differently (lower tolerance for mess), and our partners need to relinquish control - we're perfectly capable, but we may have different approaches and standards. IMO fixing this would be revolutionary to individual relationships - to some degree it cost me mine.
• Education, babysitting. totally agree.

Thank you all for a really interesting convo. I promise to read more on this.

If nothing else, follow "Man who has it all" on Fb and see how it feels to be treated as a woman.

"There's a lot of "this [obscure example of something being male] is yet more misogyny". Just because a crash test dummy is male doesn't demonstrate a hatred of women."

This is non-trivial.

"“In general, experts say, the smaller the person, the fewer crash forces the body can tolerate. When cars wrap around trees or utility poles, for example, smaller drivers and passengers suffer more head, abdominal and pelvic injuries but fewer chest injuries than average-size people, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Women’s less-muscular necks also make them more susceptible to whiplash, researchers say.

A 2011 study by the University of Virginia’s Center for Applied Biomechanics found that seat-belted female drivers in actual crashes had a 47 percent higher chance of serious injuries than belted male drivers in comparable collisions. For moderate injuries, that difference rose to 71 percent.”"

more info

I think that what it demonstrates is that "male as default" - that the "average man" represents all of humanity - has serious limitations. Limitations which make the world more difficult for people who are outside the range of "average male" and more into "average female" or "average child".

This is the point about representation. If women are at the table, then they bring their perspective, and stuff like this gets missed less. When you have a bunch of men doing things they often completely fail to take into account other perspectives - because what works for the "average man" simply works, right? It's not necessarily about active "hate" - but the consequence can be as bad as if it had been. Male crash test dummies have resulted in, for years, women having a significantly higher risk of serious injury or death when in car crashes.

Maybe pick a different example.

feminism not seeming to me to be about equality.

Ah, right, you see feminism as a movement which aims to be nice to everyone rather focusing on women. Your problem is that you think women ought not to focus just on women because if women aren't minding everyone, what happens then?

@ItsBetter. That crash test dummy thing was in this forum! Patriarchy is tough one for me... I maybe don't understand your meaning of patriarchy, but nobody thinks I'm the "head" of the household, and women aren't excluded from power etc. I just don't see it. You also don't mention how patriarchy might impact my sons, which is kinda what I mean about feminism not seeming to me to be about equality.

Women aren't excluded from power. Right. So the lack of female politicans and ceos is because women don't want it. Or just aren't good enough?

Do you think black men are equally unambitious?

Actually. Do you believe white middle class rich men are just naturally better and smarter? Because if they aren't excluding other people who don't fit that means all those other people are really just not as good.

Feminism is about women. It would benefit men in some ways but you asked about your daughter. It also isn't about men. It will make men's lives better if they are respected as care givers. Less expected to be sex mad assholes who think with their dicks. Allowed to cry. But as men are benefiting by and large on the backs of women. I don't actually care about it benefiting men. Women are allowed to do something for themselves.

was hugely aware of the fund raising for breast cancer (which I admit affects men too, in smaller numbers) and none for "male cancers"

And who is doing this fund raising?

Well the op clearly has an answer for everything so I just want to wish him well raiding his daughter and a successful relationship with her when she is an adult.

Raising even.

Curiously, I don't think that answer is ever going to be "I was wrong".

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I've read them all.

I wasn't trying to have you do my homework for me - I was trying to understand a different view point and to check my beliefs.

oh should women also be dressing in blue and doing races for men as well? I'm a bit angry movember isn't about me.

Even though breast cancer awareness started to combat the shame around breast cancer.!

Yeah but to do that you could google "feminism".

Is that why your opening was the good old "ahem, man here, don't kill me laydeez!! Hohoho!" beloved of men who just want to draw the silly women out so they can demonstrate the errors of their ways?

And the raising awareness and all the hard graft along with that.

Do you want to us to do that for men too, OP? Perhaps with a ready smile on our face and a box of cookies for any man who'd like to join us?

"lower tolerance for mess" = excuse to be a lazy slob and let women run around after them. Grow up, take some fucking responsibility and lose your sense of entitlement. Your partner doesn't need to relinquish control . You need to take ownership. Otherwise you may find you have to do all the housework. On your own.

Sorry when I started that post it was straight after AlternativeTentacle!