Male feminism

[HardToFindAUsername]

Hi. I'm a bloke (sorry) with 2 sons and a daughter.
I want the best for each of them, obviously.

I've got into an internet bubble where I'm seeing a lot of anti-"rabid"-feminist messages, and I'd like to check whether it's un-balancing my views. I've had a read of a few threads on here and I'm actually worried that my views may perhaps be correct.

Before you read on can I stress that this is a genuine attempt to understand. My current views probably aren't yours, but aren't meant to offend.

As things stand this is what I perceive as feminism:

1. There's a lot of "this [obscure example of something being male] is yet more misogyny". Just because a crash test dummy is male doesn't demonstrate a hatred of women.
2. There's lop-sided comparisons of "the advantages of being male" to the "disadvantages of being female". Pay gap is a good one, I see this as mostly a "personal career preference" issue (and perhaps a "parent penalty")
3. There's loads of generalised criticism, lots of which isn't answerable in the same sound-bite way the criticism is voiced. It comes across to me as wanting to complain, not wanting to improve things.
4. There's no single version of feminism, so some or all of the above may not apply to any individual.

I'm fully expecting some abuse here, which I can take fine, but I am genuinely trying to work out if I should be (more of) a feminist for my daughter's sake, or if the "issues" are being blown out of proportion.

I dont really know what might persuade me (if you even care to do so, I'm not assuming you do/should) - maybe there's an actual situation where (if some part of feminist agenda was in effect at the time) you can describe how your life would be different?

This is a genuine attempt to understand, and whilst I may be challenging I promise to listen and try to see any points you put forward.

Fire away

I was trying to understand a different view point and to check my beliefs How perfectly patronising gracious of you.

ThanksmsMay yes that's interesting about women being allowed to do something for themselves- I wonder if that's one of the reasons feminists are on the receiving end of so much vitriol - because in this one thing they're not servicing the needs of others (for once).

Lower tolerance for mess doesn't explain men who come home and demand spotless houses from their wives either. I think actually maybe men can see mess... hmm.

Why do women have this supposed lower tolerance anyway? 10 points for women swept caves while men hunted saver tooth tigers. definitely not down to societal assumptions that women should keep a clean home and are more likely to be pulled up on it

You don't see male privilege because you have it

Wow. OK. This isn't what I thought Mumsnet was like.

I dont have an answer for hardly anything, which is why I came here looking for a reasonable discussion. I was specifically trying to avoid googling feminism, because that's led to me seeing one perspective.

I've looked again and I must have misread the definition of feminism - it doesnt refer to equality in the sense I thought.

Thank you for taking the time.

Just out of interest, what did you think Mumsnet was like?

Well, you know, all mumsy so full of women who want to gently pander to men who honour them with their presence.

Possibly tea and cake. And you come back with your washing done.

What on earth were you expecting?

If you found the MN feminists board you most definitely did know what to expect and what you were looking for. It's not the first place people look to for feminism. Though it really ought to be.

Anyway. Go make your own damn sandwich

@Hardtofindausername

doesnt refer to equality in the sense I thought

That's because equality as such is not the goal of feminism, eliminating the oppression of women is.

We could achieve "equality" by giving men a 12 percent pay cut, and increasing the levels of tape and domestic violence against them. Clearly that's not the sort of equality that's helpful though, is it?

*rape

Yes, you've missed the point, women earn less but can lose their job and be bankrupted by a rape or domestic violence. they may also have to move several times to escape an abuser.. We are doubly vulnerable.

Women dont just complain, we get off our arses, organise and fundraise.
Men dont fundraise. Men dont fundraise for mens cancers, or for the DV or rape services they need. Fundraising is the opposite of 'just complaining, not wanting to improve things'.

As for the medical thing, its a huge problem. A quick google on any subject would give you enough info to settle your doubts. We can start you off; we fdont have to do it all for you.

the research gap;
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1761670/

A more accessible article.
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/apr/30/fda-clinical-trials-gender-gap-epa-nih-institute-of-medicine-cardiovascular-disease

I wasn't aware of the crash test dummy thing. Interesting to know, glad I've learned from the women posting here.
You mentioned your daughters so I assumed you had daughters why would I bring up sons? Also patriarchy benefits men and disadvantages women so why would I bring how it impacts the men that benefit and continue it?

This isn't what I thought Mumsnet was like.

Warn your friends that if they need details on feminism they should go somewhere else.

Okay, I'm home from a 12 hour day at a meeting to which I was invited because I'm world-class in my field, which is, incidentally hard maths end of science. I'm also one of a group of female workers at my workplace (world class reputation) whose equal pay claims are going through the courts right now because although our management's own internal audit revealed a systematic pay gap - not between roles, but within single roles - of up to 10%, they claimed they didn't have the money to fix it. I also managed to get promoted to my present senior role while my DS was a toddler (and I am a single parent to boot, so carry the whole responsibility for my son's care).

Because I am (a) knackered and (b) underpaid, I'm afraid my retort will be rather grumpier and more short-tempered than normal.

You wrote: Pay gap is a good one, I see this as mostly a "personal career preference" issue (and perhaps a "parent penalty")

To which I reply "bollocks". In fact, "big, hairy, male (who doesn't know what he's talking about) bollocks".

I've spent the day going round in circles with an incompetent man who has a huge sense of entitlement and thinks that several pieces of work should be put in jeopardy and half a dozen engineers be hugely inconvenienced because he only wants to do his piece of work at a certain time (that btw is inconvenient for the business). So I may be less than accommodating to other men demonstrating an equal lack of awareness.

End. Of. Rant.

But yeah

I must be getting very cynical. I can see where these wide eyed 'teach-me-about-feminism' men are going from about 2 lines into their OP.

I'd love to know what he thought MN should be like? Lots of mummies chatting about our lazy hubbies who won't pick their pants up, maybe?!

@thymelord

Yes, I do wonder* if this male Seeker After Truth will be the sort who has a blinding flash of light wherein he realizes that the oppression of women is vastly more widespread and subtle than he had noticed, and feminism's responses vastly more complex and challenging than he knew. And see that his understanding is really shallow and inadequate, so will run straight off to the library to do some self-led education on feminist history before returning to intelligently engage with the issues.

Or if he will be the sort that offers increasingly limp and generalized "arguments" in support of the "questions" he dragged in from meninismforbeginners.com before skulking back off there to complain about how he tried to have a reasonable discussion with some feminists but they were all too rude and reactionary to bother with.

*Except I don't wonder, as the first sort apparently doesn't exist.

You also don't mention how patriarchy might impact my sons, which is kinda what I mean about feminism not seeming to me to be about equality.

Really??? Do you really need someone to explain to you how a system which favours males over females might impact males? How about starting with the fact that (since statistically boys do less well than girls in school exams yet go on to earn more than their female peers) they are likely to find it easier to get better pay than if they were female. Or how about the fact that (again, statistically- we all know NAMALT) if they have a female partner they are likely to do much less of the domestic work. Or that despite all the gender inequality lots of people will tell them that their success compared to their female peers is definitely because they are just better and more committed. Or the fact that they will probably get through their teenage years without having some old woman leering at them and making suggestive comments then getting aggressive when they don't play along.

I won't attempt to address the bigger issues in your post, but it's worth hanging around and reading this board quietly for a while with an open mind.

On a more specific point, however, fundraising for breast cancer research/awareness is more beneficial to men than the equivalent for testicular cancer - according to Cancer Research UK, breast cancer kills more men than testicular cancer (73 vs 60 in 2014).

It also killed 11,360 women. It is an odd position to take - to object to more effort being made to raise awareness of a disease that kills thousands of people over one that kills dozens on the basis that the first is seen as a "woman's" disease and that the second is exclusive to men.

My dad is also described by the first two lines of the OP's post. Thankfully he (and my brothers) have listened a great deal to things I've told them on feminism and the misogyny which is still inherent in society.

maybe there's an actual situation where (if some part of feminist agenda was in effect at the time) you can describe how your life would be different?

I'll ignore the use of "agenda" to say there are so many for all women and girls but I'd have not been regularly subject to street harassment since the age of 14 for one.

There are also some fantastic and informative posts on this thread. So many intelligent and inspiring women. Hedgehog best wishes with your equal pay claim and you are fantastic

I would suggest you research the statistics on rape, abuse and domestic violence. This is primarily why I am a feminist, I have seen violence towards women my whole life and am helping a friend in a dv situation right now. Your Dd is at risk of this. Check out the women's aid website.

Also read The Whole Woman by Germaine Greer. She is still my favourite feminist theorist because she is very clear and keeps it simple. Though I don't agree with everything she says.

There was a thread on mumsnet a while back that discussed catcalling of little girls, 11 and 12, so many women posted that this had happened to them or their daughters. But a handful of people just refused to accept that this exists. Very eye opening thread. Your Dd will encounter this at some point in her teens if she hasn't already.

I sometimes get fed up with feminists arguing it seems for the sake of arguing for instance the everyday feminism site, can't stand that website, and things like Amber Roses slut walk I just can't get behind, so I see your point. But yes feminists often disagree, we are not the Borg.

I came to mumsnet because of the feminism board and posts about the transgender issue. It really opened my eyes and this is one of the few places where this issue can be debated honestly.

Perhaps have a look on YouTube and check out the 'Women decide for yourselves' video about trans. Also babyrad fem and Madeline burns ( hope I got her name right) this is another issue that will affect your children.

I would suggest you research the statistics on rape, abuse and domestic violence. This is primarily why I am a feminist, I have seen violence towards women my whole life and am helping a friend in a dv situation right now. Your Dd is at risk of this. Check out the women's aid website.

Absolutely. VAWG is what made me a feminist and first made me aware of feminism; I've discovered a lot more since and am learning a huge amount daily, not least from here.

Aw shucks, NoLove - and thanks!

Possibly tea and cake. And you come back with your washing done.

That made me laugh out loud.

OP, I assume you mean the attached post when you talk about the car crash dummy post. I didn't link it to misogyny but sexism. I can only assume you didn't bother to read the link if you think that women dying unnecessarily because men are seen as the default humans is trivial. Either that, or you did read it and are remarkably callous.