Male feminism

[HardToFindAUsername]

Hi. I'm a bloke (sorry) with 2 sons and a daughter.
I want the best for each of them, obviously.

I've got into an internet bubble where I'm seeing a lot of anti-"rabid"-feminist messages, and I'd like to check whether it's un-balancing my views. I've had a read of a few threads on here and I'm actually worried that my views may perhaps be correct.

Before you read on can I stress that this is a genuine attempt to understand. My current views probably aren't yours, but aren't meant to offend.

As things stand this is what I perceive as feminism:

1. There's a lot of "this [obscure example of something being male] is yet more misogyny". Just because a crash test dummy is male doesn't demonstrate a hatred of women.
2. There's lop-sided comparisons of "the advantages of being male" to the "disadvantages of being female". Pay gap is a good one, I see this as mostly a "personal career preference" issue (and perhaps a "parent penalty")
3. There's loads of generalised criticism, lots of which isn't answerable in the same sound-bite way the criticism is voiced. It comes across to me as wanting to complain, not wanting to improve things.
4. There's no single version of feminism, so some or all of the above may not apply to any individual.

I'm fully expecting some abuse here, which I can take fine, but I am genuinely trying to work out if I should be (more of) a feminist for my daughter's sake, or if the "issues" are being blown out of proportion.

I dont really know what might persuade me (if you even care to do so, I'm not assuming you do/should) - maybe there's an actual situation where (if some part of feminist agenda was in effect at the time) you can describe how your life would be different?

This is a genuine attempt to understand, and whilst I may be challenging I promise to listen and try to see any points you put forward.

Fire away

Perhaps this definition is more to the anti feminists liking;
“The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”

Pat Robertson, 1992, opposing an equal rights amendment.

I read the post Quentin and I fully agree feminism is allowing women a choice. I think that the media image of feminism needs changing. I want my child to bebfree of oppression not judged on sex and I feel Women in general are the better group. If not for women nothing would be achieved but some women (I know they are rare) want everything to be in there favour. I think that the pay gap shouldn't exsist I don't think women should be judged on appearance or forced to fit a stereotype. I want to learn how I can make this happen for my daughter what as a man I can do to make life better for all. I just feel overwhelmed by it. How can I help. When as a man I raise an issue on this I feel ignored by my male peers that's why u love mums net.

Well OP, there are two very basic rules for men on here re: feminism.

1. Do not ask questions about feminism.
2. Do not try to explain anything about feminism.

Just listening is probably a very sensible approach.

Damn! late to the thread again. This is my favourite resource for this kind of poster

Why I love mums net even

user1498213655

Much as it goes against the grain for me to congratulate someone for doing something which I think is his profound duty, nonetheless, it's encouraging that you seem to be posting in reasonably good faith.

However, a thread asking for information from feminists is not really going to work. Because another basic tenet of feminism is that women are frequently asked to do the emotional labour for men.

When that labour is actually based upon the reason for feminism in the first place, you can see the problem...and the irony.

However, in the interests of spreading the word, I had a quick look at this site, and it might be useful to you.

malefeminists.com/

DadofGingers87
I think theres a lot you can do for your kids. Keep telling them they are worthwhile, competent people. That you value them and other people should too. and that they shouldn't settle for second best. That you are there for them, so support them and back them up. Dont assume they know it, say it to their faces.
Society has a tendency to treat adult women like children, and then penalise them for behaving that way. The problem with that model is that children dont make good parents. And that we age. You cant be a teenager when you are late middle aged, so basing your self worth on youthfulness is damaging.

I think one of the best thing men can do for their daughters is treat their wives well. Share the housework and the mental load. Don't get aggressive because if you do your daughter might well believe that's all she deserves later too. Also dont, as my dad did, suggest that young girls are to blame for being slags when a male celebrity is found guilty of a string of sexual assaults on little girls. Or comment on women's appearances if they happen to be reading the news or otherwise presenting a TV show.

Absolutely Collidascope. Equality at home is hugely important, it's vital for us to see parents sharing housework. Women continually end up doing the bulk of the housework, this is learnt cultural behaviour in my opinion from what the majority see at home. It's so easy to fall into and still so pernicious.

It's vital for fathers of daughters to build their self-esteem as well, ensure they know they can aspire to anything, that they're not held back or expected to do anything due to their sex. If daughters see this attitude from their fathers it helps enforce this is what should be expected from boys and any potential male partners in future, as well.

DadofGingers87

I agree with DJs post. Delusions of Gender might also help you understand how insidious society is in treating girls and boys completely differently. How people, men and women, do it without even realising.

How they insist they treat children equally, and are then shocked when they are filmed, and discover a bias they didn't know existed.

Feminists suspect this before they are feminists. Then they read what other feminists have written and it suddenly illuminates their experience like some almighty, celestial lightbulb. And it doesn't generally happen to males.

It's only when you question something that you have always considered 'just the way things are', that dots get connected so quickly, so bloody consistently and with such awful and blinding predictability, you are left gasping at how you just didn't see it.

And once the goggles are off, they are off forever.

Or comment on women's appearances if they happen to be reading the news or otherwise presenting a TV show.

Excellant point. My girlfriend often comments on what Kirsty Work is wearing when she presents Newsnight. I generally just shrug my shoulders - no complaints yet.

"Wark" not Work. Tsk ! - blinking autocorrect

absolutely agree Datun
So hard to explain what feminism is 'about' when it's 'about' pretty much everything in the social and political world.
Maybe if OP thinks about his daughter growing up (don't know if her's mentioned her age) and the reflex way we restrict/worry about girls as they become more independent, more so than boys, he will see that we fear gilrs are more likely than boys to be victims of violence , especially of sexual violence. And that we worry if they go out 'dressed like that'. And that what is perceived as attractive/acceptable in women tends to be impractical, more decorative, more juvenile....think of shoes and ask yourself WHY men's shoes are never ones that it's impossible to walk/run in, yet women's often are. Why, why should that be?

^Perhaps this definition is more to the anti feminists liking;
“The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”^

That's definitely what swung it for me.

Dadofgingers. With all the horrible things that men do and it is mostly men. Do you get why women might find it a big that a man would get her up about a tiny fraction of women who might judge your daughter for too much makeup?

Op I'd really love answer to this question please.

Women aren't excluded from power. Right. So the lack of female politicans and ceos is because women don't want it. Or just aren't good enough

Do you think black men are equally unambitious?

Actually. Do you believe white middle class rich men are just naturally better and smarter? Because if they aren't then they are excluding other people who don't fit that mould

Oh lordy!

So who'se going to be cleaning all of this blood off the carpet, hmm?

I'm not very knowledgeable about feminism, but it strikes me that a lot of men who don't get it are not looking deeply enough or far enough back at the causes of inequality. And you don't really have to look very far at all.

So they see women making 'traditional' choices about work and child care and they assume that because these decisions are, on the face of it, free choices ( because women are allowed to make 'non-traditional' choices), then all is well and fair, and women have the same freedom to choose as men.

But this is clearly total bollocks. Women do not make these choices in a vacuum. Their 'choice' is hindered by all sorts of features of a patriarchal society, both past and present. Not just things about the way men behave, but about the low and skewed expectations women can still have about their own possibilities in life. To name a few...

1. The woman's own upbringing (whether she was treated equally with male siblings, example of equality set in parents' marriage etc)
2. The woman's husband's attitude, if she has one
3. The subjects girls were expected to do when she was at school
4. The careers that she was led to believe were 'suitable for women'
5. Her treatment by men during her lifetime
6. Lack of equality and social acceptance around division of parental leave and childcare

...And much more.

Equality as a belated concession in human history is not the same as proper, inherent acceptance that women are in fact, and always were, equal to men in every sense and therefore deserving of equal status and treatment. I'm not sure we even can totally eradicate the mindset that being a man is the default human setting, because it has been built into society for so long. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to. And that means some unplalatble truths for men and some facing their own intentional or comfortably misguided denial about the differences in what it means to live as a man compared with a woman.

'Allowing' women to have equal access to (most) things men can do/have does not in itself magically level the playing field, because many many women have not been privileged enough to grow up with the tools and attitudes to enable them to take full advantage of that access and are still prevented from doing so by the still prevalent anti-equality attitudes of many men and some women.

This is an interesting advert from Australia. The tagline is violence towards women starts with disrespect. Feminists know this to their soul.

Men on here questioning, next time you are in the pub and man says cor look at the rack on that - you hear sexist banter, we hear this

Great post Datun.

I am an intuitive radical feminist but no little theory (beyond a module on the French feminists at university about a hundred years ago!) I have "Delusions of Gender" next in my reading pile which I got a few weeks ago. It's good to hear it talked of here as a good starting point into learning more about feminist theory.

The less you interact with women - the less trouble you are likely to encounter.

Give over cad.

What you mean is, less you interact with feminists, the less your conscience will prick you.

Dat - yes, that too.

I'd be all for the kind of men who encounter trouble when interacting with feminists not interacting with me or any woman or girl, ever.

Women should probably stay away from men if they don't want to be RAPED OR KILLED. But diddums to the men they couldn't help it. Women are such nags and teases, it's their own fault.

One thing that annoys me normally when men suddenly want to debate feminism, is that they immediately dismiss any anecdotal evidence, emotion and personal journeys.

But feminism started this way, certainly second wave. Women got together in female only spaces shared experience, then some bright woman did the research and got the statistics and another bright woman made sense of it all.

I completely agree with the lightbulb moment. For me feminism is deeply personal and I am a feminist manly because of my own experience first of all, being a girl child growing up in a violent household.

This isn't some social theory that I wish to cooly debate, its been a healing for me to listen to women much smarter than myself make sense of my own life and put it all into a wider context.