Male feminism

[HardToFindAUsername]

Hi. I'm a bloke (sorry) with 2 sons and a daughter.
I want the best for each of them, obviously.

I've got into an internet bubble where I'm seeing a lot of anti-"rabid"-feminist messages, and I'd like to check whether it's un-balancing my views. I've had a read of a few threads on here and I'm actually worried that my views may perhaps be correct.

Before you read on can I stress that this is a genuine attempt to understand. My current views probably aren't yours, but aren't meant to offend.

As things stand this is what I perceive as feminism:

1. There's a lot of "this [obscure example of something being male] is yet more misogyny". Just because a crash test dummy is male doesn't demonstrate a hatred of women.
2. There's lop-sided comparisons of "the advantages of being male" to the "disadvantages of being female". Pay gap is a good one, I see this as mostly a "personal career preference" issue (and perhaps a "parent penalty")
3. There's loads of generalised criticism, lots of which isn't answerable in the same sound-bite way the criticism is voiced. It comes across to me as wanting to complain, not wanting to improve things.
4. There's no single version of feminism, so some or all of the above may not apply to any individual.

I'm fully expecting some abuse here, which I can take fine, but I am genuinely trying to work out if I should be (more of) a feminist for my daughter's sake, or if the "issues" are being blown out of proportion.

I dont really know what might persuade me (if you even care to do so, I'm not assuming you do/should) - maybe there's an actual situation where (if some part of feminist agenda was in effect at the time) you can describe how your life would be different?

This is a genuine attempt to understand, and whilst I may be challenging I promise to listen and try to see any points you put forward.

Fire away

Mainly not manly! Fucking patriarchal auto correct

Mainly not manly! Fucking patriarchal auto correct

I completely agree with your post. I also had that moment and from there explored and discovered more. I also agree that once you see these things you can't "un-see" them.

@CheeseBubbles
Fair request, and I was looking for a discussion, but I'm hesitant to start talking again.

Dont forget the reason I started this was to consider my own assumptions... work in progress. And as @Datun sort of says, I'm deliberately trying to prick my conscience.

Women aren't excluded from power. Right. So the lack of female politicans and ceos is because women don't want it. Or just aren't good enough
I think there are about 200 female MPs, about a 3rd of the commons. Not 50:50 certainly, and quite a recent shift, but not trivial either. I don't know how many female politicians there are overall (councils etc). Female CEOs are very rare I believe. I'm not assuming any "why's" for that, and @Eolian listed some good examples for why that might be. I'd still say "not wanting that" is a reasonable reason.

Do you think black men are equally unambitious?
I don't think unambitious is a common cause, but (like me) maybe not interested in being an MP or CEO. Possibly for equivalent reasons to the above, but I'm not assuming and not in a position to speak for them (I'm white BTW).

Actually. Do you believe white middle class rich men are just naturally better and smarter? Because if they aren't then they are excluding other people who don't fit that mould
No, I don't believe that at all, we all know incompetent people of all genders and backgrounds. I'm still absorbing the comments from Eolian and others, but yesterday I would have said "white men aren't excluding people"

Returning to listening.

cheese xenia hasn't been on the board while I've been here and I've been about a few years.
Unless she's NCd

Op you may also run into the trouble that I did, is that this is so far outside of your own experience it's a struggle to empathise. If broadly speaking you aspire to not be sexist and treat women in your life well they are hardly going to want to make you feel shit about it.

So a little bit of homework for you, open up the discussion with the women in your life be they friends and family members and ask them what's life has been like for them? Touch on subjects like catcalling, how they would like to be treated in the workplace, and how far from that the reality is?

Something (I hope!) you'll notice is how the tone of those conversations may develop. I predict you'll hear a LOT of verbal gymnastics designed specifically to make YOU feel better, to reassure you that you are one of the good ones, and examine are you socialised to take women's feelings into account to quite the same extent? If you open up with something like "I'm beginning to get a little concerned that women get a bit of a shitty deal in our society, and I'm worried for my daughter, what can I do, and what should I be aware of?" You might find some of the responses quite depressing.

I can almost guarantee some women you know and respect will have had to have dealt with some spectacularly shitty things. Then ask yourself how many of your male peers have had to deal with similar? Then you'll have the beginnings of your answer to what feminism is all about.

Very good post Dervel.

I find my generations so poor at understanding bewildering, at schools any boy who had any effeminate behavior was teaseded and bullied for it leading them to go to the other extreme. I still find comments being made to myself like under the thumb or whipped for helping out at home letting my wife go out and have a break sharing jobs. I also refuse to let my father in law look after dd as he had lots of opinions that are so horrible I can't bear them. I still wish there was more but how I can make it better seems to be a stumbling block. After the life I saw my mother have I vowed to be better I just feel I fail somehow.

Dervel

Completely agree. It's also depressing that many women also haven't connected the dots. They too, see it as 'just the way things are'.

To be perfectly frank, taking off the goggles is quite a painful experience. Seeing the huge prevalence of sexism or misogyny is a downer.

It's like when they put red dots on paintings in a gallery denoting that they have been sold.

Suddenly you see red dots everywhere. It all fits. It's truly not about man hating and blaming men because...reasons. It's about seeing everyone, men (and women) through something like the matrix. It's undeniable. And shocking.

'Male privilege' is so real. It's tangible. When someone like the OP, has the smallest, almost imperceptible inkling that sexism may just be the teeniest, tiniest bit more rife that he first imagined, feminists can see the rusty cogs beginning to move.

You've got a fledgling concept, that you partly want to nurture, but you know the pushback is ingrained.

letting my wife go out

This choice of words isn't ideal. You can't "let" or "not let" your wife do anything.

The kind of comments you allude to are grounded in sexism (against women and girls), the idea work at home is women's work, that behaviour deemed to be "feminine" by society is shameful and weak, so bringing your daughter up away from these kind of opinions and free of stereotyping is important.

To be perfectly frank, taking off the goggles is quite a painful experience. Seeing the huge prevalence of sexism or misogyny is a downer.

Very much so. For so many reasons I wish I never had but once done it's impossible to undo it.

It's not the job nor the responsibility of feminists to educate you op. There's heaps of literature out there.

Frankly very few men are going to want to take feminism seriously because it would mean taking a long hard look at themselves. It's easier and more beneficial for them to stick with the status quo.

The thing is DadofGingers87 you are doing what you can. From your position of being a man. You are seeing individual things and addressing them.

It will have a cumulative effect and the pattern (ie cause) will be clear. Saying 'let my wife go out' is addressing the situation you see, but still with a difficult-to-shake viewpoint, hence the choice of words.

It's very wonderful to behold when a man simply holds no other viewpoint that could be considered at odds with his actions. When the belief is not tempered by a decision to 'do the right thing'. It just happens.

I think Dad realises the choice of words is bad, they're not his words, he's saying that other men say these things to him and he wants for example to protect his dd from that sort of thing.
Dad, if I've understood you correctly, once you start seeing through this stuff it's an ongoing process and none of us can change the world overnight or alone. One easy thing we always do in our family is to keep a running commentary when watching TV. E.g. Eastenders is ripe for a feminist analysis, also 99% of advertising.

No actual feminist thinks that women who wear make up or stay at home with children are letting the side down.

Women wear make up to make themselves feel better... well, yes, but this is predicated on years of messages both overt and implied that women are only acceptable in public if they wear it. Dirty if they don't shave every single hair on their body off. It comes from every form of media as well, not just beauty magazines, but films, tv shows, the radio, we're saturated in it. Couple this with the idea that women should be decorative and you not only have a world where women are valued on their looks but also a world where women who don't conform to those standards are assumed to be lesbians or trans.

So yes, women do choose to wear make-up for themselves, but they make that choice in light of the sum of their experiences.

Women who stay at home with children are letting the side down... well, this is not true. However, women who do give up jobs or careers to stay at home with children do sacrifice their financial independence and are more vulnerable should their husbands decide that the little woman is now dull and take off with someone new. Or turn out to be an abusive arse. Feminists didn't fight for all women to be made to go back to work after having children, they fought to stop women being summarily fired once they popped one out there's a difference.

I don't know how many female politicians there are overall (councils etc). Female CEOs are very rare I believe. I'm not assuming any "why's" for that, and @Eolian listed some good examples for why that might be. I'd still say "not wanting that" is a reasonable reason.

What do you mean by "Not wanting that" is a reasonable reason?

Do you mean that you believe that lots of women don't want those kinds of jobs and that that is fine because that's their choice and it's probably something inherently different about women that makes them not want to be CEOs?

Because the point I was trying to make was that you simply can't judge women's (or men's) wants and ambitions without considering the society and environment that shaped them.

A more trivial exampe: I shave my legs. It is my choice to do so. I can say that I do it because I prefer the way they look when they are shaved. And that is true. But why do I prefer the look of them shaved? There is nothing inherently unfeminine about hair. All women's legs grow some hair. Why did it become the norm for women to shave their legs, but not men?

It's not that I don't have the right to choose what to do with my leg hair. It's about what led us in the first place to being in a situation where I even have to make a conscious choice about whether to shave or not.

Eolian very good example regarding leg hair. I'm exactly the same. You could say I'm choosing to do it, and I know the reasons I'm doing it for are ridiculous and would be the first to say to a woman or girl she should never feel she has to nor is there anything wrong with having it, yet I still do it.

Then there's advertising such as this attached.

Holy f**k, I'd put money that was designed and OKed by men.

Indeed. These messages are so pervasive.

Great post Eolian.

Thanks. As I say, I am very unknowledgeable about feminism, but I'm sure many of us can look back on the path our own lives have taken and identify all sorts of things in our past that have influenced them.

I chose to go part time when I had children and let my career take a back seat, while my husband (who was junior to me in the same career when we met) whizzed up the career ladder. I wouldn't necessarily say I regret it, but neither do I feel that I went into that decision with eyes truly open or unencumbered by social and family expectations. Plus I had probably been conditioned to accept that role (partly by my mother, who thinks women should stay at home and look after the children). To the response "But you had the choice!" , I would say yes, but what led to me being the person who made the choice that I made?

You are very knowledgeable and are articulating perfectly how the oft-used lines about "choice" are impacted so hugely by existing in a patriarchal society and that choices aren't made in a vacuum, if I may say so.

Well I have MN to thank for helping crystallise my thoughts then. I was no kind of a feminist before lurking on here. I'd echo what others have said - sometimes it's hard to see the everyday sexism until it is really made clear to you. But once you've seen it, you can't unsee it. I'd like to think my daughter will make her choices with clarity and a mind less encumbered by sexist influence.

But once you've seen it, you can't unsee it.

Yep. It's so bloody irritating.

OP, two points:

1. Why would you start from a position of neutral on feminism (which you earlier said)? I honestly don't get this. I don't sit around going, hmm, activism against genocide, I'm on the fence about it. Why would anyone adopt a 'neutral' position on women's rights, much less find yourself in an 'anti feminist' bubble?

1. You want to know the situation for your daughter. Wouldn't your first stop then be the UN, looking up their most recent reports on the rights of women and children in the UK? Or do you not trust the UN, with it being the primary organisation for promoting women's rights aka feminism?