Male feminism

[HardToFindAUsername]

Hi. I'm a bloke (sorry) with 2 sons and a daughter.
I want the best for each of them, obviously.

I've got into an internet bubble where I'm seeing a lot of anti-"rabid"-feminist messages, and I'd like to check whether it's un-balancing my views. I've had a read of a few threads on here and I'm actually worried that my views may perhaps be correct.

Before you read on can I stress that this is a genuine attempt to understand. My current views probably aren't yours, but aren't meant to offend.

As things stand this is what I perceive as feminism:

1. There's a lot of "this [obscure example of something being male] is yet more misogyny". Just because a crash test dummy is male doesn't demonstrate a hatred of women.
2. There's lop-sided comparisons of "the advantages of being male" to the "disadvantages of being female". Pay gap is a good one, I see this as mostly a "personal career preference" issue (and perhaps a "parent penalty")
3. There's loads of generalised criticism, lots of which isn't answerable in the same sound-bite way the criticism is voiced. It comes across to me as wanting to complain, not wanting to improve things.
4. There's no single version of feminism, so some or all of the above may not apply to any individual.

I'm fully expecting some abuse here, which I can take fine, but I am genuinely trying to work out if I should be (more of) a feminist for my daughter's sake, or if the "issues" are being blown out of proportion.

I dont really know what might persuade me (if you even care to do so, I'm not assuming you do/should) - maybe there's an actual situation where (if some part of feminist agenda was in effect at the time) you can describe how your life would be different?

This is a genuine attempt to understand, and whilst I may be challenging I promise to listen and try to see any points you put forward.

Fire away

Hmm, well if this actually happened to your wife that would of course be wrong... but, seriously - having a go at your wife for wearing makeup? I'm having a bit of difficulty believing that that account might not be, how shall I put it, a tad exaggerated.

And if it did happen, does that merit the term "extremism"? Grooming into extremism (dispossessed young Asian men groomed into perverted forms of Islam, angry white men groomed into committing racist atrocities) tends to end in suicide bombing, knifing people, spraying crowds with bullets from a semi-automatic, not suggesting that someone might be hypocritical for wearing makeup.

Seriously, I don't think you need "fear for your daughter." I cannot think of a single terrorist atrocity perpetrated by a feminist, radical or otherwise. Even the SCUM Manifesto was a satire (along the lines of Swift's Modest Proposal).

Thank god those extremist feminist did not succeed in their plot to force your wife to work rather than stay home and look after the kids. Can you imagine the damage?

Today 08:43 BertrandRussell

"I need to look out for my daughter and how to combat feminist extremism"

What on earth do you mean?

That's an answer I'd like to see!

OP, this is a feminist board, for people to talk about feminist issues. It's not an explanatory article, or a teaching resource.

The women who post on here are mostly very informed about feminism, the history of it and why we have it.

And it's a large topic. But the very first tenet that has to be accepted is that we do live under a patriarchy. Unfortunately, the very word patriarchy will induce an eye roll in some people. So you might find it easier to think of it as male chauvinism.

Women also understand that men do not comprehend what living under a patriarchy is like for girls and women. The objectification of women and girls and a sense that they are just not quite as good as men is what leads to the statistical, proven oppression of females.

When you consider that 117 million girl babies are aborted before they are born, purely on the basis that they are female, you might ask yourself why? And although that is not something that is part of the culture here, it should inform you nonetheless.

I don't know how old your daughter is, but if she engages in any kind of on line discourse with boys when she's a teenager, one of the very first things she will be asked is to 'send nudes'. And it will be constant. Did you know that studies are suggesting that a girl's first sexual experience is now anal sex? If you think but boys will be boys, then you're part of the problem, not the solution.

If you want to bring your children up with any kind of respect for humanity, let alone respect for the opposite sex. I would consider it an urgent duty on your behalf, to investigate feminism. With an open mind. And with your daughter in mind.

Do not dismiss it. You will not experience what women and girls experience. You will never have experienced it. You may well think you know, but you don't. You have to overcome that hurdle.

One of things that women here are often expected to do is to explain feminism to men, and then to justify it when they disagree. We know why you disagree. It doesn't happen to you! We know the questions, we know how the discussion pans out, it's very predictable. It happens all the time.

If you are serious and your opening post is in good faith just take a few hours (a few hours over the course of a few weeks surely is not too much of an investment) and browse the feminist boards for more general topics like sexism at work.

Cordelia Fine's book, Delusions of Gender explains easily and neatly why girls and boys get treated differently. And how women suffer for it.

I'd be more worried about your daughter being harassed on the street, subject to male violence, misogyny, held back in the workplace, patronised, dismissed, judged constantly on appearance.

Having said that, if only there could be a "societal change" so people would "do only what feminists say" - then maybe men would stop killing women and girls.

Fantastic and informative post as always from Datun.

If you had any respect for woman you'd be looking all this up on the internet or at the library, NOT getting all of us to do your work for you while you sit on your backside.

I worry for your daughter, I really do.

*women

Slightly different stance to a lot of folk but I actually agree with what you said (points 1-4) in your original post. (And shock horror I'm a woman!)

DadofGingers87

We will occasionally have discussions not just here, but in general on mumsnet about shaving pubic hair, wearing make up, wearing high heels, being a stay at home mum, etc.

When you live under a patriarchy, none of these decisions is made in a vacuum. The discussions get very interesting. But people are generally not shamed or ostracised for their opinions.

Many feminists wear make up and are stay at home mums. Because we have a system within which we have to make it work.

Radical feminism wants to dismantle the system so no one feels obliged to wear make up and being a stay at home parent is something that would be considered a man's job, as much as a woman's.

Sometimes the very high idea seems so against the grain that people get heated.

If your wife's friends have ostracised her, instead of engaging in an exchange of ideas, then I suggest they are not very nice people.

Which isn't the fault of feminism.

The points have all been rebutted. Point 3 is ironic as it's actually describing that very "point" (and to some extent all of them) itself.

Yeah NoLoveofMine. Point 3 is unintentionally ironic, which underlines all the rest.

Instead of complaining that you are oppressed and have no voice, why don't you change it...

Indeed Datun.

I'd also be pretty irked if my dad had come out with most of that even before I started talking to him about feminism, and horrified if he was seeking out "anti feminist messages" online.

I suspect the OP has mentally disengaged.

"I tried, I really did. I asked the feminists to explain 100 years of feminism to me, but you know what, they got grumpy".

So now he can go off fully complacent that he's done his bit. Because no one was willing to write him a 15 page essay, making it palatable and without using the word men or patriarchy (you know, in case he stopped listening).

Although there have been some excellent posts on the thread as always so I at least have gained knowledge!

Well, there was a thread first thing this morning (which got zapped in no time) which someone summarised as:

OP: Please explain feminism to me so it sounds nice, not like that scary stuff I keep hearing about at second hand from the Daily Mail

MN: Nope, not biting. We've been trolled before

OP: No really, I'm genuine. Pleeaaase explain so I can go and tell people feminists aren't nasty. That's my only motivation. Honestly not trolling...

MN: Still not biting.

OP: You're all a bunch of man-hating ugly bitches...

This thread strikes me as a slightly more sophisticated version of the same thing, with an OP who has just enough intelligence to realise that sophisticated trolling involves sitting on your hands and not resorting to the "you're all a bunch of man-hating ugly bitches" line, and that in fact wounded "but you're not giving me a chance", "aren't you engaging in reverse sexism", "but men suffer too" lines keep the thread going much longer.

I missed that one M0stly.

Many times I have fervently wished that a post or a thread is not deleted because, the point the opening poster is trying to rebut, is just constantly being reinforced by their comments.

Indeed Hedgehog. I think men and boys interested in feminism or wanting to learn should read, discover more and listen to the experiences of women and girls. That's what the boys I know who are genuinely interested and now excellent supporters of feminism did. Listened as we spoke to them about feminist issues, learnt about street harassment etc, didn't try to dismiss experiences or invalidate them and tried/try to understand as best they can the points we make to them.

NoLoveofMine

Given that you are a teenager, it's very heartening to know that you are managing to spread the word from the bottom up, so to speak.

NoLoveofMine

I wonder if one of the things that pull teenage boys up short, is the sexual harassment and objectification of girls that they can so plainly see.

Thanks Datun! My friends and I do our best - some boys just revel in their misogyny but the specific boys I'm friends with are great (not that they should be praised for not being misogynists but they are genuinely interested in and want to be supportive of feminism). I'm also managing with my brothers who are both younger - the elder of the two now tells me of pulling his friends up on sexism.

Indeed. It's normalised so early now, the misogyny and sexual comments online are constant, I don't recall being at a large scale party where I've not heard sexual harassment, objectification and sexualised references to girls, it's quite worrying. The problem with it being so plainly there is it's also so commonplace as to be often accepted as natural by young people generally, if that makes sense.

erit the term "extremism"? Grooming into extremism (dispossessed young Asian men groomed into perverted forms of Islam, angry white men groomed into committing racist atrocities) tends to end in suicide bombing, knifing people, spraying crowds with bullets from a semi-automatic, not suggesting that someone might be hypocritical for wearing makeup.

Shhh! No logic here please.

Hey Dad exactly how do you plan on combating this feminist extremism? Grappling women to the floor and shaving their legs? Maybe applying a light blusher on women who've fallen asleep in the tube?
Someone how I don't believe that any feminist woman who goes to feminist meetings and hangs out with scary radical feminists would be married to a man 'combating feminism '

Slightly different stance to a lot of folk but I actually agree with what you said (points 1-4) in your original post. (And shock horror I'm a woman!)

Why the shock that you're a woman

Women are people. People sometimes get things wrong. [shrugs]

dadofgingers we actually had a big old debate about feminism/SAHM a while back. Maybe you would like to read it.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2925437-I-am-a-feminist-and-a-sahm
I have never seen MN feminists (or real life feminists) suggest you can't be a feminist and a SAHM. I think it's an "alternative fact" designed to stop women engaging with feminism.

Oh I dunno Quentin. I think Xenia would disagree with you. But I'd say ive only heard it a couple of times in decades of doing all the feminism.

Hi. I'm the OP.
Deleted my account last night as this seemed to be futile. Reconsidered this morning.

I'm not disengaged, but I'm shutting the F up, and just listening to what everyone has to say.