Okay men, strip clubs & stay dos

[Motherknowsbest84]

Okay not sure this is the right place to write this.. But something has really griped me lately..

Why do men use stag dos & boys being boys as an excuse to go to a strip club or have a lap dance.

If under any other circumstances having a naked woman rubbing up against you and getting off on it is cheating. Why would being on your stag do be any different?

People don't seem to understand my morals on this!

I have been to a hen party with a "butler in the buff." I think the only one who wanted him there was the bride, who was pissed as a newt, and who is, by her own admission, very odd. The rest of us would much have preferred he'd put his clothes back on and left. He was attractive but the fact that he was paid to be there was all there was to it really. Imagine being in a restaurant with your friends and your waiter suddenly takes his clothes off and joins you at your table. It's just awkward and you end up having to make small talk with someone you don't know, who is wearing only a piddling apron. Perhaps we were doing it wrong... Perhaps we should just have pawed at him and made smutty comments about him getting out the black pepper instead of asking him whether his girlfriend minded him doing this job and whether he found it unpleasant.

In my younger days I had quite a few male friends who were involved in industries/sports where a night out often ended up in a strip club. Each one of them told me repeatedly that they were not really in to it, but just went along with the 'lads'. Several of my female friends' DHs have had stag nights in strip clubs or even weekends in places best known for the availability of women's bodies for cash. Again, each one has claimed not to be really interested but his friends arranged it all. I'm afraid I don't believe a word of it- it seems clear to me that what they really mean is that if there is a large enough group of them they can all blame each other for doing something that they know is not acceptable. Each of the people I know that make this claim would not usually put up with being expected to do something that had no interest/benefit for them- and would be quite assertive about it.

At the same time they all tell me that it's fine, the women are are there by choice etc etc. My own personal view is that every time they do this and others around them agree/pretend to agree it sends a clear message that they can behave as badly as they like in a large group and still be treated individually like decent human beings. (This may be why a lot of the men I know who have done this are no longer friends!)

They lick them? Where do they lick?

One of the photos they posted to facebook, the naked waiter was laid on his back wearing only an apron. A couple of women were licking his nipples and another was lifting up his apron.

Do you cringe when men hire female strippers on a stag do?
Why do you find it awkward if a woman expresses her sexuality?

No, I have a stronger reaction. I find it abhorrent.
Really? So those guys getting lapdances are only expressing their sexuality? OK then.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Women do this just as much as men. Men are just as exploited and sexualized as women. Yada Diet Coke ad yada hen nights yada yada.

One of the photos they posted to facebook, the naked waiter was laid on his back wearing only an apron. A couple of women were licking his nipples and another was lifting up his apron.

I should imagine this was just done for the sake of a selfie. When they stopped photographing, did they all continue to lick his nipples? I'm guessing not.

I made the point that if we saw an older man behaving like that with a young waitress we'd be horrified and probably say something.

Whilst it's unpleasant behaviour and I certainly wouldn't be comfortable in company doing this, it's not comparable. For a start, a woman could well feel intimidated and vulnerable. Also, these things don't happen in a vacuum. The woman knows that there is always a chance the men could do the things they might be saying to her, if they wished. We are constantly aware of men looking, commenting etc on us and the threat of harassment and sexual violence. A man just doesn't have that fear, nor has he lived since being a young teenager being harassed on the street by women.

Neither is "a bit of fun" but one is clearly more pernicious and threatening than the other.

In my younger days I had quite a few male friends who were involved in industries/sports where a night out often ended up in a strip club. Each one of them told me repeatedly that they were not really in to it, but just went along with the 'lads'.

Yet in doing so they are excluding women from progressing in those industries, making it more difficult for women who work with them to be involved and showing what they feel (or think is acceptable for other men to feel) about the role of all women and girls.

Any man who goes along to a strip club whilst claiming he doesn't like the idea himself is arguably even worse than those who see nothing wrong with it (or at least as bad). They're happy to forgo their apparent beliefs and demean all women for the sake of not challenging their friends/colleagues on their own views of women.

My partner told me last night that he had previously been to a strip club (we weren't together) I told him I've lost respect for him and he got a bit frustrated and missed the point in what i was getting at. He said he went with a group and one guy he knew had a wife. I told him well I've lost respect for that friend too. He said he would look stupid if he'd of left the group. I said you look more stupid for not using your own brains.

I then said you wouldn't mind me or your daughter becoming a stripper then would you? Seen as though you've no problem with it.
He said I was disgusting and thats different.
How?

Argument ended..

I've yet to hear anyone give a decent response to that; if a man is disgusted at the idea of a female relative of his being a stripper, why does he think it's fine for him to go and view other women in that way, a way he himself is admitting is degrading?

Sorry to hear you found that out about your partner, Motherknowsbest84 and it's great you challenged him. It's telling I think that so many man use defences like they'd "look stupid" or they "just went along with it" when it comes to an activity central to which is demeaning and objectifying women.

I've yet to hear anyone give a decent response to that; if a man is disgusted at the idea of a female relative of his being a stripper, why does he think it's fine for him to go and view other women in that way, a way he himself is admitting is degrading?

This is because some women are for fucking and some are for marrying and looking after. The women who are there to be fucked are disposable, women who are there to be married are respectable.

It's a dichotomy as old as Patriarchy, it's the basis of rape myths and sex based oppression. Being a woman worthy of marrying is a gilded cage, being a woman who's just there for fucking is just a cage. Either way, it's a cage.

This is because some women are for fucking and some are for marrying and looking after. The women who are there to be fucked are disposable, women who are there to be married are respectable.

Yes, but by seeing some women as one category and some as the other it's also perpetuating and legitimising these misogynist views. Another man could just as easily see the daughter of the man in question in the latter category (as plenty probably would). Seeing any women as disposable endorses the viewing of all women as such. Going to a strip club perpetuates the view of all women as sex objects for male gratification.

"I've yet to hear anyone give a decent response to that; if a man is disgusted at the idea of a female relative of his being a stripper, why does he think it's fine for him to go and view other women in that way, a way he himself is admitting is degrading?"

Because Madonna/whore.

Yet in doing so they are excluding women from progressing in those industries, making it more difficult for women who work with them to be involved and showing what they feel (or think is acceptable for other men to feel) about the role of all women and girls.

Yep. I have been told that this sort of 'networking' event does not exclude women- we are welcome to go along and would probably enjoy it if we were less repressed. Apparently if women went along the clubs would have male 'dancers' too which would make it all equal.

Because Madonna/whore.

I can understand that but I mean it's so clear to me that by having this view, a man is legitimising all women being seen in such a way by men, as those he sees as "Madonna" will be "whore" to other men.

Yep. I have been told that this sort of 'networking' event does not exclude women- we are welcome to go along and would probably enjoy it if we were less repressed.

Indeed. The choice is to be completely cut out and see your career suffer as a result, or go along, feel uncomfortable and potentially degraded and possibly be included. Again, the lack of challenge by men who claim they don't like such places perpetuates this culture.

Yes, but by seeing some women as one category and some as the other it's also perpetuating and legitimising these misogynist views. Another man could just as easily see the daughter of the man in question in the latter category (as plenty probably would). Seeing any women as disposable endorses the viewing of all women as such. Going to a strip club perpetuates the view of all women as sex objects for male gratification.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting that this is how I think when I was merely giving an explanation of why men can on the one hand visit strip clubs and on the other think "their women" should never work in them, but nothing could be further from the truth. I was simply describing the dichotomy, not upholding it.

"I can understand that but I mean it's so clear to me that by having this view, a man is legitimising all women being seen in such a way by men, as those he sees as "Madonna" will be "whore" to other men."

I honestly don't think men with this mindset think about it that deeply. Women are simply in one category or the other. It wouldn't cross their mind that anyone could look a "Madonna" in any other way.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting that this is how I think when I was merely giving an explanation of why men can on the one hand visit strip clubs and on the other think "their women" should never work in them

Sorry? How was I saying that's how you think? I could say you were assuming I had no idea it could be the case when I do, but was trying to explore it further.

I honestly don't think men with this mindset think about it that deeply. Women are simply in one category or the other. It wouldn't cross their mind that anyone could look a "Madonna" in any other way.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't think it's very complicated for them to realise that if they harass a woman or talk about women in a certain way, that a female relative of theirs would be talked about or viewed in the same way by other men. And if they don't think about it, they should.

It's another reason "imagine if it was your daughter/sister" isn't too helpful I feel. Suggests women could only have value or be worth not demeaning if they're related to the man in question.

For example boys my age will know full well others look at a sister of theirs, say, in the same way they do other girls, as they'll make jibes and comments about the sisters of others (and mothers).

The what if it was your daughter argument is interesting though because of the absolute shock and disgust men show when this is put to them. They really don't think these issues through, nor are they made to. Sex workers are seen as 'other' in their minds and they are usually clueless as to how much catcalling and abuse their Dd will experience as a teenager or young woman.

The what if it was your daughter argument is interesting though because of the absolute shock and disgust men show when this is put to them. They really don't think these issues through, nor are they made to. Sex workers are seen as 'other' in their minds and they are usually clueless as to how much catcalling and abuse their Dd will experience as a teenager or young woman.

Quite. Yet their "othering" of certain women feeds into and perpetuates the culture that leads to their daughter experiencing street harassment (and being seen as that "other" category generally by other men).

"Madonna" seems to be "girls and women related to the man", "whore" is "every other girl/woman".

"imagine if it was your daughter/sister"
In this scenario he isn't imagining the feelings of the daughter or sister, he is imagining how slighted or dishonoured would feel if one of 'his' women were to be demeaned in this way
He would feel disrespected or put down because another man had defiled something which beloved to him

Just as keying his BMW reduces it's value so sexualy taking advantage of his women reduces her value and is a way of getting one over him/ expressing dominance

"I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't think it's very complicated for them to realise that if they harass a woman or talk about women in a certain way, that a female relative of theirs would be talked about or viewed in the same way by other men. And if they don't think about it, they should."

Of course they should. But they don't.