Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Men bashing

512 replies

PirateQueenie · 01/05/2017 14:57

Hi all,

I don't have a real purpose to this thread other than to just voice my confusion and possibly hear some other opinions.

I would identify as feminist - although for want of a better word, I would rather say I'm an egalitarian. I enjoy reading these threads, and comment on some. But what really disheartens me is all the man-bashing Ive seen. I have a male partner who is my world ♥ wonderful male friends and family members, and when I read some of the things on here I can't help but feel very defensive of the men in my life.

Is this the new wave of feminism? Or am I missing something? When I was growing up (with my mum as an avid feminist), I never heard "men this" or "men that" it was always about how women can strengthen and empower themselves WITHOUT putting men down.

OP posts:
Original poster
PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 15:17

Thanks Datun, we've not seen eye to eye on everything, but I enjoy debating with you as I feel it's more fair and a two way Street than with other posters. Maybe I'm just being too sensitive.

OP posts:
TheSparrowhawk · 03/05/2017 15:18

'The most sexist threads I see on here, recently are men are useless, what do you expect, typical man, have to train him.'

I agree entirely with this. It is ridiculously 'man-bashing' to suggest that men can't do housework etc because they are somehow 'useless' - WTF? Feminists, in general, don't believe for one second that men are 'useless' - rather they believe that men are totally capable but that because of the patriarchal society they've been brought up in, they've been trained not to see these things as being important or worth their effort.

GuardianLions · 03/05/2017 15:18

Women are asked to take care of men, centre transwomen, defend feminism to make it user friendly.

It's gets so old. What never gets old is people's shock when women decide not to.

Hear! Hear!

TheSparrowhawk · 03/05/2017 15:21

I think a lot of women struggle with feminism when they first get to grips with it Pirate. Maybe it's not right for you, or maybe you just need to hand in there and you'll start to feel more comfortable with it. I don't think it's a matter of being 'sensitive,' I think women are used to everything being so man-centric that a truly female-centric, unapologetic, no-shit situation can be a bit daunting at first.

HmmOkay · 03/05/2017 15:21

Queenie, I didn't say you started the trans bashing thread.

I said "You seem to have spectacularly bad luck in starting threads, choosing threads and quoting comments". You started this thread, chose to comment on the trans bashing thread and quoted comments from other threads on this thread.

That's all.

Original poster
PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 15:24

So how have I had "spectacularly bad luck" in any of those things??

OP posts:
Datun · 03/05/2017 15:32

queenie

You jump into controversial threads and post away, with abandon.

Great.

But then get the nark because people are sarcastic or disagree with you.

You have headed straight into the most exacting part of mumsnet.

You are going to be confronted with exasperation, frustration and anger. Mostly it is directed to external things that come up.

But those feelings often run through peoples veins. It's just a byproduct of the support and sharing of information, articles, laws, media, etc, about feminism.

You've asked for lots of links and information. Just read them, toughen up a little, and keep going.

Original poster
PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 15:45

It's funny you say I get narky when people disagree with me, as I've noticed that almost every poster gets narky, rude and sarcastic with anyone who disagrees with them.

OP posts:
Datun · 03/05/2017 15:53

They do, Queenie, they do.

You are standing out though. I'm not really sure why though, to be honest.

OlennasWimple · 03/05/2017 15:53

Pirate - do you really not see that you have an abrasive posting style at times?

RebelRogue · 03/05/2017 15:53

Queenie what exactly do you want from this thread?

Datun · 03/05/2017 15:57

Perhaps it's because you pick up a reaction and run with it. For several posts. Instead of saying well I disagree with that entirely, but anyway, back to the issue in hand.

GuardianLions · 03/05/2017 16:09

I've noticed that ALMOST EVERY POSTER gets narky, rude and sarcastic with anyone who disagrees with them.

Hi Queenie I've just put in caps the sort of sweeping generalisations that are problematic.

  1. You haven't been on FWR long enough or seen enough threads to make comments about almost every poster. It is either antagonistic or a bit childish/teenagerish- or both to make that kind or generalisation.

  2. Not all opinions are equal. Some opinions are based only on an emotional feeling or hunch. Some opinions are based on experiences. Some opinions are based on research and facts. Some opinions are based on deep analysis. Some opinions have been honed by robust argument. Some opinions are based on a bit of all of the above.

When well-informed people get annoyed by an emotive person throwing out ill-informed opinions with careless abandon - it is not because they disagree over some subjective matter - they are pulling that person up on being rude/inappropriate.

GuardianLions · 03/05/2017 16:11

Sorry it should have been:

I've noticed that ALMOST EVERY POSTER gets narky, rude and sarcastic with ANYONE who disagrees with them.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 03/05/2017 16:18

Also, when you've been socialised from birth to be nice and accommodating, and punctuate everything you say with "I'm sorry, but..." and back down when someone disagrees with you, not because you're wrong, but because it's a reflex action, because that's how women are brought up to behave, it can come as a bit of a shock to find yourself in a female environment where women have decided not to be nice, accommodating, etc. By which I don't mean they're then being nasty or obstructive etc. Just not bending over backwards to be nice. When women argue robustly, refuse to back down, demand evidence - in short when women do the sorts of things that are taken for granted in male intellectual discourse - it's often interpreted as "narky", "shrill", "haridan-ish" (insert long list of pejorative words here). Not because the women are actually being any of those things, but simply because they are not conforming to their allotted gender role of being nice and accommodating.

RebelRogue · 03/05/2017 16:51

Actually if you stick to this board for while you will find that not everyone always agrees. Not the new posters,not the old posters. Even when there's an agreement on an idea in general,people add their own experience ,input and insight into it.

Moussemoose · 03/05/2017 18:34

You haven't been on FWR long enough or seen enough threads to make comments about almost every poster. It is either antagonistic or a bit childish/teenagerish- or both to make that kind or generalisation

You are not part of the clique.

OP I agree with you however there is a specific orthodoxy on FWR and if you don't buy into it wholesale you are 'rude' 'inappropriate' or 'forcing someone to suck cock'.
I have attempted under various names to engage in discussion. You find yourself having a sensible debate with certain posters and then the pile on begins and it's just easier to leave.
Most posters know how to play the game. Posts can be read several ways and then there are disingenuous 'report if you are offended' or 'I didn't mean it like that' or even 'you are too sensitive for our passionate debates'.
Now that is tiresome and childish. It's a shame as some people do want to debate but there is a hard core who want to enforce the FWR orthodoxy.

GuardianLions · 03/05/2017 18:51

Mousse

So do you think this is the kind of acceptable thing to say when you are relatively new to a forum (capitals mine):

I've noticed that ALMOST EVERY POSTER gets narky, rude and sarcastic with ANYONE who disagrees with them.

Even though it is impossible to make this claim?

PoochSmooch · 03/05/2017 18:58

It's got nothing to do with some sort of feminist orthodoxy. It's bad netiquette for newbies to come bowling onto boards and say that they find the tone of it depressing or demeaning or man-bashing, or whatever we're calling it now.

Posters who come here in good faith, ready to debate feminism with at least a basic understanding of what that actually means, will do fine. Those who don't, won't. I think that's just as it should be.

One of the most basic acts of feminist consciousness is to challenge the voice inside yourself that says "BE NICE". As PPs have pointed out, when you're used to women being self-effacing and polite and "no, no, after you!" and "I'm sure we can all agree to disagree!", it is shocking to be exposed to an environment where that isn't required.

It's not wrong, though. This is what women sound like when we challenge that internal voice and calmly yet forcefully state our beliefs.

ROAR.

GuardianLions · 03/05/2017 19:08

Also, I am not sure debating is what I do with other feminists. Sometimes pretty robust points can be made, but I like to chat with other feminists to exchange information, temperature check on the state of the world, have a bit of banter, share perspectives, etc.

In my experience debating with feminists is more likely a male pursuit irl, like a kind of point-scoring sport for them to get a kick out of.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 03/05/2017 19:24

Don't you love it when a random poster pops up from nowhere to completely misrepresent what you've said?

A lesbian poster had posted that she was now frightened of the dating scene because of the pressure to date transwomen or face social ostracism, and asked why it was always lesbians who were expected to suck dick. I posted in support of her, saying that a certain sort of man seemed to expect this of women - and that not only were gay men not under any pressure to go down on transmen, straight women weren't either, because we were expected (by a certain sort of man, NAMALT) to suck men's dicks.

Somehow this has turned into an accusation that any dissent from the "party line" on here (whatever that is) is met with an accusation that "you just want women to suck men's dicks."

I have never said that to any poster on here. No-one I know on FWR has said that to any poster on here. Ever.

But as usual the mean girl feminist accusations fly around without any basis whatsoever. I wish people would come on here and engage in the arguments rather than baselessly misrepresenting people's positions and, frankly, telling great big steaming shitty lies about behaviour that has never taken place.

Elendon · 03/05/2017 19:45

I just love it when some posters make it about their delicate selves and yet become all passive aggressive when fact checked. [Grin]

Elendon · 03/05/2017 19:46

That wasn't directed to you Mostly.

GuardianLions · 03/05/2017 19:53

Don't you love it when a random poster pops up from nowhere to completely misrepresent what you've said?

Quite!

GuardianLions · 03/05/2017 20:06

And soz to keep on - I'm still thinking about debating with feminists as a male pursuit - a slight diversion - but still relevant to the OP in a way...

What really bugs me about 'men who like to debate feminism with feminists', is that I know they are just trying to manipulate women who would rather ignore them, into giving them attention.

It is an extremely low form of attention seeking - a member of the oppressor class putting the oppressed on the defensive, just to spar with them from a social position of advantage for idle recreation.