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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Men bashing

512 replies

PirateQueenie · 01/05/2017 14:57

Hi all,

I don't have a real purpose to this thread other than to just voice my confusion and possibly hear some other opinions.

I would identify as feminist - although for want of a better word, I would rather say I'm an egalitarian. I enjoy reading these threads, and comment on some. But what really disheartens me is all the man-bashing Ive seen. I have a male partner who is my world ♥ wonderful male friends and family members, and when I read some of the things on here I can't help but feel very defensive of the men in my life.

Is this the new wave of feminism? Or am I missing something? When I was growing up (with my mum as an avid feminist), I never heard "men this" or "men that" it was always about how women can strengthen and empower themselves WITHOUT putting men down.

OP posts:
Xenophile · 07/05/2017 12:17

Bollocks! Had to go and do life things and the thread has moved on. Excellent posts by the usual women though.

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 07/05/2017 12:21

And of course in a lot of these relationships the wife would describe the man as being 'good' or 'decent' and apart from those 'other bad men'. This feeds the idea that it's a minority of men only that we need to be worried about rather than the majority.

BertrandRussell · 07/05/2017 12:32

I think that the cleaning of loos is an excellent proxy for feminist debate. Men leave their pee and shit for women to clean up because the power balance in the relationship makes it possible. Every time he goes to the loo he reminds her that he is actually in control of her. And that, at some level, he despises her. And every time a woman says "He just doesn't notice" or "But he is so good in other ways" she is colluding in her oppression and that of other women.

GuardianLions · 07/05/2017 14:22

I concur Xenophile!

Moussemoose · 07/05/2017 16:16

I'm probably breaking some rules but I don't want to start a thread as I'm not sure what I would call it and I don't want to attract racist nutters and it does fit into this thread in a way.

I went to a funeral yesterday of a friend who was a Muslim. There is a thread about it. Anyway, very sad, still very upset etc

At the mosque I went up the 'Ladies' stairs. There was a main entrance but the 'ladies stairs' were round the back - it was clearly a back entrance. It felt like something from 1950s America - 'coloureds only'.

The friends I was with both men, both black were horrified at sending me up there. When I got up everyone was lovely, but it was obvious the main service was downstairs and we were not it. You could look at the main service but the glass was frosted with tiny clear squares you could peek through. I felt like a child peeping at the grown ups. It was humiliating.

When we got out my male friends were saying they felt they should have refused to go in out of solidarity with me. If it had said 'coloureds only' I sure as fuck wouldn't have gone in the white entrance.

Did these men do enough to help and offer solidarity? Am I islamaphobic? Should I have gone up the stairs? Are any Muslim men capable of being feminist in these circumstances?

Apologies for kind of diverting the thread but I am struggling to fit this into my head and my life.

Xenophile · 07/05/2017 16:39

Mousse, I recently visited a Muslim country and went to the National Mosque there. Even in the National Mosque in that country, women were permitted into the main hall most of the time to take part in prayer. There was a "ladies stair" though and that lead to a mezzanine for women on high days and holidays. It made me extremely uncomfortable as a feminist, in the end I had to wait outside because of some other things that weren't related to worship, but to other stuff and my inability to keep my fat mouth shut.

It's not Islamophobic to ask these questions imo, however, there are a fair few Muslim feminists and I try to take my lead from them as to what kind of solidarity they are looking for from non-muslim women, if that makes sense?

BertrandRussell · 07/05/2017 16:48

Mousse- I would say that a funeral isn't the place to take a stand-although that might be a bit pathetic.....

GuardianLions · 07/05/2017 16:50

Hi Mousse I think it is okay to prioritise your feminism but it is also okay to not feel like taking a stand at a funeral out of respect for the friend who has passed.

It is just one of those infuriating things - rights of passage are connected with religion and the majority of people follow patriarchal religions.

Perhaps it is not something that a non-muslim can do anything about apart from support the muslim women who take a stand?

HomityBabbityPie · 07/05/2017 16:51

I personally don't think feminism and religion are compatible but that's a whole other thread.

BertrandRussell · 07/05/2017 16:51

But in terms of activism I personally would not go into a mosque unless it was for a funeral or something like that, and I would try to find out from Muslim women what else I could do to be helpful. It's certainly not islamphobic, though.

Moussemoose · 07/05/2017 16:57

Standing there peeking through the little glass squares was one of the most uncomfortable and unpleasant experiences of my adult life. I've had the usual groping and sexist bullshit and I hand it back to them with a snarl. But just the feeling of helpless humiliation, awful.
It was a funeral I was already upset, but fuck I hated it.

GuardianLions · 07/05/2017 18:04

Flowers mousse

BBCNewsRave · 07/05/2017 18:24

Homity I personally don't think feminism and religion are compatible but that's a whole other thread.

Oh, I don't know. I've always felt a sort of connection to nature, in touch with the greater universe without the human (male?) society bullshit, style of thing. Quite like the idea of a coven... (only half joking)

Moussemoose · 07/05/2017 19:52

Just at the moment a rad fem coven sounds like a damm fine idea to little old liberal me.Confused

BertrandRussell · 07/05/2017 19:56

About a million years ago when it were all fields and I was several names younger, a lovely poster called onebatmother and I set up a secular radical feminist commune. We had bandanas and badges and everything.........

OlennasWimple · 07/05/2017 20:11

Flowers Mousse

I'm a pragmatist too (which is why the label rad fem doesn't sit so well with me), and I generally don't think that other people's weddings and funerals are the places to fight the good fight.

Some mosques are more progressive than others - separating the congregation, but no screening between the men and women and equal views of the service, for example. But generally religion tends to reinforce the patriarchy, and many branches of Islam are particularly bad in this regard.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 07/05/2017 20:14

Im am just still Shock at the toilet bit

I've never cleaned a toilet...I'm a bit concerned about what that says about me

Moussemoose · 07/05/2017 20:32

Well let me tell you Rufus if you were Muslim you'd be cleaning the toilet.

I have a Muslim colleague who I like and respect, he is always respectful to me. He will ask me how my weekend went and my response at the moment is neither respectful or pleasant.

I didn't fight and I feel shit. I had no choice it was a funeral. I've lost someone I care about but I feel like I have sold out. If it was a race issue, if I was defending my black friends I would have stayed in the car park. But you know feminism there is always a good reason to not fight, God forbid we make people uncomfortable so you climb the stairs and peek through the glass.

Fucking, fucking patriarchy wins again

Tartle · 07/05/2017 21:13

Sometimes you have to compromise your ideals to get by in the real world. It sicks but there's not much else you can do. A funeral is definitely not the time or place to tackle this issue and saying goodbye to your friend was more important.

I have had to travel to Saudi for work a couple of times and it makes me deeply uncomfortable but I need gainful employment so I don't have much choice. I comfort myself with the fact that what I do has a positive impact on women's educational opportunities so it counteracts any support for the regime.

It sometimes amazes me that the situation of women in Saudi is not viewed as analogous to the situation of black South Africans during apartheid. no one really seems to care.

Datun · 07/05/2017 21:15

Moussemoose.

It sounds like a shit experience. Being reminded of your status at such a poignant moment.

A clash of culture interfering in your need, and right, to grieve.

Are women's tears worth less? How dare they.

And your position. To stand with the other women in solidarity? Or to make a stand for solidarity?

You did the right thing for that moment in time. However painful.

Flowers for your loss. Both of them.

BBCNewsRave · 07/05/2017 21:30

Mousse Flowers
He will ask me how my weekend went and my response at the moment is neither respectful or pleasant.

Apologies if this is a stupid idea, but might it help to practice a short but to the point reply in advance?

Moussemoose · 07/05/2017 21:52

Thanks for that everybody. The men in my life are appalled and supportive but there are some things they just can't get. Solidarity sistersWink

I'll think of some polite but pointed words and get on with my life but that is an experience I could happily live without.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 07/05/2017 22:06

Flowers Mousse - what a terribly crap thing to have to go through. Sometimes you just have to go with the only compromise available to get you through the situation, but it must have felt terrible.

LeMontane · 07/05/2017 22:26

Mousse the difference between how racism is treated vs feminism is mostly that black people as a class make no excuses for racism. You would be hard pressed to find a black person questioning whether racism still exists or not as is often the case with sexism.

I can tell you now, had it been a race matter, black people would have boycotted the mosque.

FlorenceLyons · 07/05/2017 22:27

I'm sorry, Mousse. It's very hard to deal with something like this when you're already feeling emotionally vulnerable.

Not at all on the same scale, but I still feel angry about a visit to St Mark's in Venice with my family a couple of years ago. It was very hot and we were all wearing shorts (not particularly short shorts) and T shirts. My (eleven year old!) daughter and I were both handed lengths of material to wrap around our legs before we were allowed in. Surprise surprise, no such thing was required of my (male) partner (or our younger daughter).

It made me feel simultaneously ashamed and furious. Even more so on behalf of my daughter.

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