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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

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11
VestalVirgin · 11/04/2017 14:16

You may be right, Vestal, although from what I know, "ladyboys" are actually considered more desirable for having a penis.

Hm, yeah. Perhaps that thing with young gay men being forced to have surgery is more prevalent in Latin America; very Catholic countries.

Often it seems like it's the deeply self-hating, strongly gender policed young gay men who get the surgery.

Homosexual young people seem to make up the bulk of the huge increase in demand for surgery - the adult autogynephiles who drive the transactivist movement don't seem to want to part with their penises, usually, they seem more invested in making people believe that penis can be female.

And then of course there's now gender non-conforming children who may or may not have grown up to be homosexual. (There's some previous lesbians who report being attracted to males after taking testosterone. Which is very, very, very worrying, as if that's true, it'd be the first method of gay conversion to ever actually work.)

VestalVirgin · 11/04/2017 14:26

People finding the idea of mtf genital surgery very offensive, assuming it has a mainly sexual basis - do you feel similarly angry with women having breast enhancement surgery? It would be very easy to conclude that that's usually for mainly sex reasons.

... have you paid any attention to feminism at all?
Feminists have always been against cosmetic surgery being done to women to make them more appealing to the male gaze.

The reason we are not angry at the poor women who ruin their health with silicone implants in their breasts is that they don't harm us.

Caitlyn Jenner harms women plenty.

If you had read the thread properly, you would have noticed that we are not angry at males with artificial fuckholes so much as pitying them.

We are only angry at men who demand that we give men with artificial fuckholes access to women's spaces.

A woman is a woman, is a woman. And if she puts silicone implants in her breasts, that does not make her more of a woman, regardless of what patriarchy tells her, but since she was a woman in the first place, it does not make a difference.

HmmOkay · 11/04/2017 14:28

"Often it seems like it's the deeply self-hating, strongly gender policed young gay men who get the surgery. They perhaps feel like they'll be attractive to straight men and will fit in better, (and no longer have to deal with internalised homophobia,) as 'straight' women".

I do wonder how people like this actually get on after surgery. I think some MTT might struggle with the loss of status (of being a 'woman' versus a man in our society) coupled with the fact that most straight men would not seek a relationship with a MTT person. Finding a life partner must be tricky.

And of course even with lots of surgery, some people don't accept you as a woman at all. And never will.

It must be a quite sobering reality for some people that, actually, your life isn't the blissful state that you thought it was going to be. And I wonder how they deal with that.

BigDeskBob · 11/04/2017 14:37

Vestal, I've never thought of it that way. I've read many comments about how peoples sexual orientation changed once on these types of drugs, but I always considered it to be more of an 'excuse' than a real side effect. But why would lesbians start being attracted to men? There's no social reason for them to make it up. It would be odd for lesbian and gay groups to be behind such medication.

Its a pity that there doesn't seem to be any studies on the use of cross sex drugs verses placebos.

VestalVirgin · 11/04/2017 14:48

Its a pity that there doesn't seem to be any studies on the use of cross sex drugs verses placebos

That's just not possible. No one who doesn't want to have her body harmed would consent to a 50% chance of being given testosterone. And those who do want testosterone probably wouldn't be very happy with the risk of getting a placebo. Not to mention that it would soon be obvious in the physical changes whether they get the real thing.

But I don't think the placebo effect plays a role here.
If transition is used as a way out of being a victim of homophobia, then looking like a man while being attracted to men isn't exactly the goal!

RogueBiscuit · 11/04/2017 15:39

This reply has been deleted

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HooAteMyCheese · 11/04/2017 15:43

I'm genuinely confused. If we acknowledge that men like Caitlyn are not women, why do people call him she and her?

Because they're being polite.

BigDeskBob · 11/04/2017 15:46

Vedtal, Oh, no - its not a tril I'd want to be a part of. Its more that I've always seen the 'your sexuality may change' as permission for previously straight men, to be attracted to men, without the implication that they were ever gay. I haven't heard of many previously gay men identifying as female attracted MTT. But doesn't mean to say there aren't lots of them. Its just odd that stonewall would get behind a drug that could change someone's sexuality.

(That's a couple of sentences that were far more complicated than need be because I refuse to use lesbian together with MTT together.)

noeffingidea · 11/04/2017 15:47

Roguebiscuit those are the rules of the forum (and most other forums, workplaces, etc). It's considered good manners, to acknowledge the way a person self identifies. If you don't want to you can use their name or 'they'.

BigDeskBob · 11/04/2017 15:47

We call them she and her because otherwise we would be deleted and may even be banned.

Rawr · 11/04/2017 15:57

You people are fucking creepy. Don't you have anything better to do than anonymously discuss celebrities genitals on an Internet forum (about parenting??)

noeffingidea · 11/04/2017 16:02

hhorvath I assume they get something out of the process of having to dilate it every day. A sexual thrill.
Thats not what I've heard. Apparently it can be quite painful, especially in the early stages. After all it is an open wound to all intents and purposes. In fact failing to keep up with the post op care can be an issue, and one of the causes of needing further surgery.

LumelaMme · 11/04/2017 16:03

Rawr, this whole issue goes waaaaay beyond Jenner's genitals.

If you had read the thread properly, and the many other threads, you would understand that.

noeffingidea · 11/04/2017 16:09

Rawr I find it quite interesting from a medical point of view. And parents can be interested in a wide variety of topics. Not to mention the 'stranger' Caitlyn Jenner did put it out in the public domain by including it in her book so presumably she knew it would be discussed.

BigDeskBob · 11/04/2017 16:11

Rawr, believe me, the last thing I want to think about it CG genitals. I just want to chat about why men think that a surgical altered penis is a vagina. Yes, even on a parenting website.

Gallavich · 11/04/2017 16:17

I'm genuinely confused. If we acknowledge that men like Caitlyn are not women, why do people call him she and her?

Because otherwise we get deleted and sometimes banned from mumsnet. It's a sop to the concept of 'misgendering' which even posters who don't believe in it still have to acknowledge.

Pawpainting · 11/04/2017 16:19

You people are fucking creepy. Don't you have anything better to do than anonymously discuss celebrities genitals on an Internet forum (about parenting??)

Didn't you already say this exact thing pages ago? Didn't get the reaction you wanted so you came back I guess. No one is forcing you to read anything are they? I suppose you'll be throwing out accusations of transphobia next and the disappearing. God forbid women, who have real functional vaginas, have a discussion Hmm

RogueBiscuit · 11/04/2017 16:37

Because otherwise we get deleted and sometimes banned from mumsnet. It's a sop to the concept of 'misgendering' which even posters who don't believe in it still have to acknowledge

Has mumsnet actually said they will ban people who don't pretend that men are women? This is really bothering me. Surely it's a free speech issue? I object to being forced to lie.

CharlieSierra · 11/04/2017 16:41

If you had read the thread properly, you would have noticed that we are not angry at males with artificial fuckholes so much as pitying them

I'm angry if they call them vaginas.

We are only angry at men who demand that we give men with artificial fuckholes access to women's spaces

And this of course.

Datun · 11/04/2017 16:56

Has mumsnet actually said they will ban people who don't pretend that men are women? This is really bothering me. Surely it's a free speech issue? I object to being forced to lie.

MNHQ has indeed done exactly that in the past. I think they are slightly more lenient these days. I don't suppose they would care if we called Caitlin Jenner he, but they would care if we did it to say trans-woman who contributed to a thread.

It's fine, I believe, saying you don't believe transwomen are women, that you think they are men, but it can get thorny if it's about someone closer to home than just some nebulous celebrity. Like someone's husband, child etc.

Although I would be polite to say ego because I'm actually often addressing her comments (and contrary to what she thinks, I have no interest in hurting her feelings) I do think it is wrong, anyway.

It automatically changes the way you think about somebody when using female pronouns, you constantly have to switch back to male in your head to feel the impact of what you're saying or reading.

RogueBiscuit · 11/04/2017 17:58

Plenty of things trans people say really offends me. I really object to having my language censored to keep men happy. It just feels like more of that thing where women are expected to smile and nod and put men's feelings first. Maybe I'm over thinking it.

Ifitquackslikeaduck · 11/04/2017 18:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CharlieSierra · 11/04/2017 18:23

There's a couple of people on Twitter who reckon they were banned for misgendering, in fact one of them says she said she wouldn't use female pronouns for a MTT if it came to it, hypothetical situation, and was banned for threatening to misgender.The first one said man and him on the hen party thread. The subject wasn't on the thread but a transwoman was. Obviously there could have been more to it, or not.

Rawr · 11/04/2017 18:53

There's a couple of people on Twitter who reckon they were banned for misgendering, in fact one of them says she said she wouldn't use female pronouns for a MTT if it came to it, hypothetical situation, and was banned for threatening to misgender.The first one said man and him on the hen party thread. The subject wasn't on the thread but a transwoman was. Obviously there could have been more to it, or not.

"Transphobia" is against the MN rules, I don't really understand why everyone's so shocked that being hateful and demeaning is getting them in trouble.

Datun · 11/04/2017 18:55

RogueBiscuit

No, you are definitely not overthinking it.

I don't think it is a crime here, but it can be construed as a hate crime if it's done with malicious intent.

I have no idea how stating a biological fact could be interpreted as malicious. But I have no doubt that it can be perceived as such.