Caitlyn Jenner

[Terfinator]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

Surely it would be a better idea to "fix" the brain and not the body.

datun

But having a surgically created hole to resemble female anatomy is pointless, unless it's either to be penetrated, or fetishised. It's a male need to its very core

You don't think that someone with such an issue of being born in the wrong body would want their body to be as near a female as possible?

Even with all the complications, the risks etc?

Ego

""Fuck hole" is an interesting term someone used up thread."

In a crude way it's accurate, as there is no physical purpose to the construction of the cavity (orifice?) other than penetration. I think genital neo-cavity, or genital neo-orifice are accurate and more neutral, but rather a mouthful. So I tend toward just "cavity," "orifice," and other such things, as they're accurate and easily understood within the context of conversations such as these.
I can't blame feminist women who use terms such as "fuck hole" however - when you read over the woman-hating, AGP, fetishistic things by trans activists on the internet, it doesn't seem an inappropriate term

You don't think that someone with such an issue of being born in the wrong body would want their body to be as near a female as possible?

I don't accept the born in the wrong body narrative, ego. If having surgery to look more female alleviates symptoms of gender dysphoria, I have said many times that the treatment should go ahead. Nonetheless it is only about validating a feeling.

Its got nothing to do with being female.

I don't accept the born in the wrong body narrative

In that case, that explains your view and I suppose nothing anyone says can get you to change your view.

I don't believe the bone in the wrong body narrative either ego and in this age of self determination, and belief systems overriding biology, that's alright isn't it!

It's interesting to hear someone say that the surgical construction of a vaginal mimicry fixes dysphoria of the "born in the wrong body" type of feeling.
I have always thought that if (knock on wood,) I suffered some sort of cancer that required a radical hysterectomy (including a vaginectomy,) I would not want a reconstruction. All the ways in which it lacked, the bacterial infections, the upkeep, the dilation, the worrying about "depth," the lack of vaginal musculature that responds to arousal...it would all only remind me all the more acutely of how I didn't have a vagina anymore. I feel I would be more 'dysphoric'!

Somehow history will be rewritten and the neo vagina will be painted as the best thing.

Um ... already happened.

Men have always talked about the real vagina as:

• smelly
• dirty

They always wanted it to:

• never bleed
• be a fuckhole they can use without consequences
• need penetration

So they really wouldn't be able to see the difference when it comes to fucking. (But will still exploit a real woman for reproduction purposes. Like in Handmaid's Tale)

There are regions in Africa where a dry vagina is seen as very desirable, leading women to ruin their vaginas with tampon-like constructs that dry them up ... and a sky-high HIV infection rate because there is a very good reason why the vagina self-lubricates to avoid injury.

Everything the "neovagina" is, men have, somewhen, somewhere, either wrongly accused the real vagina of being, or have demanded that women do to their real vaginas to make them more desirable.

The fact that a real, healthy vagina is self-cleaning and smells pleasantly of lactic acid produced by its natural flora has always been denied by male dominant opinion.

It is a bit creepy how nicely the trans narrative fits into the overarching themes of patriarchy. It is almost like they planned this before it was even possible to surgically construct a hole in the male body.

..it would all only remind me all the more acutely of how I didn't have a vagina anymore. I feel I would be more 'dysphoric'!

Yeah, I don't get that, either.
Of course, if you never had a real vagina, you wouldn't know how a real vagina feels.

But with all the complications this "neovagina" causes, I think anyone suffering from dysphoria would be better off just having the penis changed to something resembling a vulva and be done with it.

It's not like actual women even pay attention to their vaginas in everyday life. Hell, as a little girl I was worried I might not actually have a vagina , as I had been led to believe it was a gaping hole, which ... well, it is not.

But with all the complications this "neovagina" causes, I think anyone suffering from dysphoria would be better off just having the penis changed to something resembling a vulva and be done with it.

I assume they get something out of the process of having to dilate it every day. A sexual thrill.

I assume they get something out of the process of having to dilate it every day. A sexual thrill

Autogynephiles like Jenner, possibly

But it's not like men can't stick a dildo up their ass any time they want to, so ...

I don't accept the born in the wrong body narrative

In that case, that explains your view and I suppose nothing anyone says can get you to change your view.

That view is a faith based position based on pseudo religious beliefs about souls and essences. Or otherwise it's a deeply unscientific notion of female sexed brains in male sexed bodies.

You are never going to persuade most women that you know what it's like to feel female. I appreciate that your surgery has made you happier and alleviated your mental health symptoms and that's beneficial to you but you seem to gravitate to these threads in a way that certainly doesn't seem to be good for you.

To address previous comments on the topic, there are multiple instances of transsexual people having surgery, without appearing to be fully cognizant of the potential complications.
4thwavenow.com/2017/03/15/renowned-san-francisco-phalloplasty-surgeon-hit-with-multiple-lawsuits/
Six FTM transsexual people are currently suing the USA's top surgeon in phalloplasties and 'top' surgery, after botched operations.
www.vice.com/en_ca/article/bc-trans-woman-wanted-for-arson-at-montreal-sex-reassignment-clinic
"A sex reassignment clinic in Montreal was set on fire earlier this month, and now police are looking for a trans woman suspect [Heideck] who had surgery at the clinic. [...] Since then, a prominent BC transgender activist has stepped forward to confirm Heideck had surgery at the clinic and wasn't happy with the results."
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/10346616/Belgian-killed-by-euthanasia-after-a-botched-sex-change-operation.html
"Nathan, born Nancy, Verhelst, 44, was given legal euthanasia, most likely by lethal injection, on the grounds of "unbearable psychological suffering" on Monday afternoon. "I was ready to celebrate my new birth," he told the newspaper. "But when I looked in the mirror, I was disgusted with myself. My new breasts did not match my expectations and my new penis had symptoms of rejection. I do not want to be... a monster. "
www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth
"Its review warns that the results of many gender reassignment studies are unsound because researchers lost track of more than half of the participants. For example, in a five-year study of 727 post-operative transsexuals published last year, 495 people dropped out for unknown reasons. Dr Hyde said the high drop out rate could reflect high levels of dissatisfaction or even suicide among post-operative transsexuals. He called for the causes of their deaths to be tracked to provide more evidence.
Dr Hyde said: "The bottom line is that although it's clear that some people do well with gender reassignment surgery, the available research does little to reassure about how many patients do badly and, if so, how badly."
Searching transsexual forums comes up with multiple instances of people who have had their surgery botched, some with terrible, lifelong consequences, but most seem quick to assure others that their surgeon is actually great, they were just an anomaly. Often they won't give the surgeon's name. There seems to be a real culture of "just do it!!" around transsexual surgeries, on the internet at least.

("Susan's Place" is one such forum, if people want to look for themselves.)
There are also subreddits on reddit which are transsexual-focused, and have a great deal of "just do it" talk. And then there are ones such as the subreddit r/manmadepussy, which have (warning: explicit ) photographs of how these 'neovaginas' turn out, and I have to say I'd prefer having a normal cock and balls to a 'neovagina', personally!

But it's not like men can't stick a dildo up their ass any time they want to, so ..

Aren't a lot of MTT gay men who are in the closet? So that would be "too gay" for that group I assume.

I think it entirely possible for people to have been warned of all the possible downsides of surgery and to simply discount them. After all, you see it all the time in cosmetic surgery. People just want it so much that they convince themselves the surgeon is being overcautious, that it rarely happens, that it's not going to happen to them etc. . 'The triumph of hope over experience' applies to many things .

Now I am very confused after looking (my eyes! My browsing history!) at those reddit threads. I thought the trans issue was nothing to do with sex, definitely nothing to do with arousal or fetish. I thought this was all a very wholesome a "gender" identity issue? Did those poor women have to sell their clothes to pay for their surgery. That's really oppressed.

The last one, is that how the dilation happens? Poor love, imagine being tortured into filling your neovagina four times a day with a dildo. Now this couldn't be adding to the joy, could it?

birdbandit
"Did those poor women have to sell their clothes to pay for their surgery."
Oh god, I snorted with laughter at this
It's definitely very...well, I suppose by nature of it being people showing off their undercarriage, it self-selects for the fetishists. But it doesn't present a pretty picture of either transsexual MTFs, or the surgery results imo (and keep in mind that they surely all think their results are brilliant, or they wouldn't put the pictures up.)

The term functioning vagina is grossly offensive since the orifice in question is only useful for one function. It's a male viewpoint to reduce the function of a vagina to a hole which can be penetrated. And they wonder why women are pissed off?

Aren't a lot of MTT gay men who are in the closet? So that would be "too gay" for that group I assume.

Huh, possibly.

Which would be somewhat ironic, because the surgery to create a neovag is about the most male-centric and therefore "gay" thing one could do.

But I assume it is really because the male-dominated medical establishment has decided that a vagina is a fuckhole and every "real" woman has to have a fuckhole men can use.
Young MtT transitioners probably don't even question it.

After being steeped in patriarchy for a lifetime, this whole "men have penises, women have vaginas" narrative seems intuitive, especially if you don't have any own experiences that contradict it. (And gay MtT might not even have seen a vulva)

Women notice that there is a whole lot more to their sex organs than "a vagina". (And I assume the use of "vagina" to mean "vulva" is a result of the fuckhole-narrative. Adults tell little girls that they have "a vagina" as their most important sex organ, and as the vagina doesn't really draw attention to itself before puberty, girls come to think that vagina means the parts they can see they have.)

scrumple those other poor transloves forced into prostitution to pay for their surgery. Literally no other career choice out there. The skills that are going to waste. It is so sad.

They can't manufacture these. (Yellow part is clitoris)

Yes, Charlie , that's a very pertinent point, actually! And almost never brought up in regards to this topic.
It's thought now that vaginal orgasm is actually just stimulation of the internal clitoris structure, in women for whom it is 'hugging' the vaginal canal closely enough. Which makes sense, to me.

Now that prostitution has been mentioned ... is that a possible reason?

Not in North America, obviously, and definitely not in the UK, but I wonder whether in Thailand or such, young gay boys see the neovagina as an investment that will pay off because they can prostitute themselves for "heterosexual" men, too, once they have an (additional) fuckhole.

("heterosexual" because I am not sure whether men who'd not notice the difference can truly be called hetero. It'd be like someone claiming to love horses not noticing the difference between a horse and a cow with a saddle on.)

You may be right, Vestal, although from what I know, "ladyboys" are actually considered more desirable for having a penis. The feminised body, combined with the penis and testicles is very 'taboo' and thrilling for fetishist 'clients'. I suppose when there's a neo-cavity instead of a cock and balls, it's not taboo enough for the 'client'?

Often it seems like it's the deeply self-hating, strongly gender policed young gay men who get the surgery. They perhaps feel like they'll be attractive to straight men and will fit in better, (and no longer have to deal with internalised homophobia,) as 'straight' women

People finding the idea of mtf genital surgery very offensive, assuming it has a mainly sexual basis - do you feel similarly angry with women having breast enhancement surgery? It would be very easy to conclude that that's usually for mainly sex reasons.