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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Caitlyn Jenner

999 replies

Terfinator · 10/04/2017 23:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4398858/Caitlyn-Jenner-underwent-gender-reassignment-surgery.html

(Yes, it's the DM - because it's one of the only news sources which is balanced on the trans issue)

Saint Caitlyn has a book coming out in which she reveals that she HAS had gender reassessment surgery. I think a few people on here thought that they hadn't.

Anyway, the DM have some interesting pictures which show how trans surgery works.

As always, the comments are very telling... Fair play to the DM for keeping them open!

OP posts:
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11
CharlieSierra · 23/04/2017 22:42

Phyllis I personally have spoken to young lesbian women who have been excluded from their university lesbian societies for refusing to consider trans women with intact male genitalia as potential partners. This is common. So called progressive politics is erasing lesbians. Whether or not you have personally encountered this, do you think lesbians should be made to feel ashamed and bigoted for their sexual orientation?

IAmEatingACurry · 23/04/2017 22:44

How would you feel about sharing a changing room with Danielle Phyllis? He is clearly biologically male and has made no effort to transition but you'd be expected to play along with him and agree that he is a woman if he wanted to use the female changing rooms at the gym.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 22:44

IAmEatingACurry, without any offence intended, do you see yourself in the minority of trans women? I could be completely reading this thread wrong, but I get the impression that so many of you seem to think that the vast majority of trans women are hostile and violent? I have certainly seen some horrible things online (some of which were said to me and my gay friend on FB), but the trans women that I've met irl are either timid, shy and not wanting to impose on anyone or are really nice people who just want to be treated as anybody else.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 22:48

Well, from the little I've now seen of Danielle Muscato, they seem to be taking the piss and trying to wind people up. Like a controversial figure that wants to make money from some opportunity they've seen in the media. Similar to a Katie Hopkins, Anne Coulter or Milo Yiannopoulos.

If I saw Danielle in the ladies toilets, I would alert the person who owned the public toilets or I would call the police.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 22:50

CharlieSierra, I can understand a University taking that stance because it doesn't sound inclusive to me.

Now, if there was an issue with someone attending one of those groups that was known to have a history of being abusive, then that could be dealt with separately.

BeyondUser24601 · 23/04/2017 22:50

Posters are very clear to distinguish that it is Trans Rights Activists (note - not just activists who happen to be trans, but activists who want Mtt to have things at the expense of women) they have a problem with, not transpeople. People like Muscato (currently residing in a women's shelter...), not my friends or yours.

CharlieSierra · 23/04/2017 22:52

If I saw Danielle in the ladies toilets, I would alert the person who owned the public toilets or I would call the police

You would be committing a hate crime. You could lose your job.

Datun · 23/04/2017 22:53

phyllis

If your friend is a transwomen and is attracted to men, he is essentially a homosexual man (despite identifying as a woman - you can't change sex).

This would absolutely account for the reason why you don't see him in the same light as a transwoman who remains attracted to women.

This has been the crux of almost all the sticking points between people who are critical of trans and people who are trans allies. It all depends on what kind of transwoman you know personally.

Homosexual transwomen are very rarely fetishists (autogynephiles/AGP). They are not interested in accessing women and children for predatory reasons. They are not interested in appropriating everything to do with women and their rights. They just want to get on with their lives under the radar.

It's little wonder that you are advocating for them. If it was just them, we would be too.

It's the predatory, straight men identifying as women who are providing 100% of the problems. And they appear to outnumber the rest.

When you view the ideology, bear in mind the two types of transwomen. One is harmless, the other is the furthest thing from it.

And as for Laverne Cox. She advocated to get a convicted murderer and paedophile to be sent to a woman's prison because he came out as transgender. The man had raped then murdered a 13-year-old girl and attempted to burn her body. When the story came out, most transacticists were utterly appalled.

Although not by Cox's support of a convicted monster, but because people misgendered her.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/08/22/laverne-cox-launches-media-campaign-in-support-of-transwoman-synthia-china-blast-convicted-for-the-rape-murder-and-abuse-of-the-corpse-of-thirteen-year-old-ebony-nicole-williams/

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 22:54

Surely in that instance regarding Danielle, if I saw them as they are in those photos, the police would understand where I was coming from? There has to be some line there.

BeyondUser24601 · 23/04/2017 22:55

Along the lines of the university/lesbian situation, and bringing out the Green Party again... While I was a member I was blocked by their LGBetc mods despite never engaging with them. I am "out" radfem and as such, apparently cannot be LGB.

IAmEatingACurry · 23/04/2017 22:56

Phyllis I believe the vast majority of transgender people just want to get on with their lives quietly and don't want to infringe upon anyone else.

Unfortunately over the last couple of years there has been a rise in a very vocal and hostile branch of trans activism which is very damaging to the rights of women, children and even damaging to the rights of transgender people who just want to get on with their lives.
These people are in the minority ime however they are the ones shouting the loudest right now and they are also the ones who are driving policy and law changes.

Datun · 23/04/2017 22:57

Daniel Muscato is considered so authentically trans that he has spoken as a representative of the community. He is also taking up space in a woman's refuge because he was thrown out of his house.

On International Womn's Day he tweeted to women if you don't like it you can suck my cock.

Yes, of course he's taking the piss. ALL transactivists take the piss. That's why they're so bloody dangerous.

CharlieSierra · 23/04/2017 22:58

Surely in that instance regarding Danielle, if I saw them as they are in those photos, the police would understand where I was coming from? There has to be some line there

No. There is no line. Danielle is a woman, just like you. Because Danielle says so. There is no line.

WankingMonkey · 23/04/2017 22:59

but I get the impression that so many of you seem to think that the vast majority of trans women are hostile and violent?

It really depends how you define transwoman.

Transsexual people, I tend to have no problem at all with and think these are the ones who just want to get on with their lives. These would be people who actually experience 'sex dysphoria' and would be likely to have/want SRS and would think about others a lot and maybe be worried about frightening women if they do not 'pass'.

The rest under the 'trans' umbrella...those who believe penises are female body parts, who yell 'transphobia' constantly, who want to force their way into female areas, the majority of transactivists, who have the 'anyone who says they are a woman is a woman' slogan on repeat, autogynephiliacs...etc. Yes, I think these are likely to be hostile and violent. They are misogynistic men and/or men with a fetish. Thats it. They want to tell women what to do and have found a new way top try and get us to STFU. They cause problems for females and transsexual people alike.

The second group far outnumber the first. It is the second group I am worried about. And it is the second group who are trying to get laws changed (and succeeding sometimes)

sticklebrix · 23/04/2017 22:59

Phyllis Taking Muscato, can you see why language matters to us? Why it's important that there is a word which accurately describes adult human female people? I don't want to come across Muscato or any male, feminine or masculine, in a women's space. They are not female.

If Muscato were a bearded, hyper masculine female person (biologically XX female) I'd have no problem with them being in female spaces.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 22:59

Datun, I'm really sorry, but you've upset me by referring to my friend who is a trans woman by male pronouns and saying that she is basically a homosexual man. She was in a relationship with a trans woman for 20 years, and is now dating men. I have seen her interested in other cis women, and chatting to gay cis women on nights out. She has had sex reassignment surgery, in fact she had to have her Metoidioplasty redone recently in the last few years.

IAmEatingACurry · 23/04/2017 23:01

Surely in that instance regarding Danielle, if I saw them as they are in those photos, the police would understand where I was coming from? There has to be some line there.

I'm not so sure about that tbh.

Danielle is American and the US has already implemented gender identity laws. Legally Danielle is a woman over there despite not making any effort to transition or to pass in anyway. If you were in the US and you asked Danielle to leave the female toilets or changing rooms then you could be charged with a hate crime.

Datun · 23/04/2017 23:04

IAmEatingACurry

I'm interested in what you say. It's very difficult to find any study into the numbers of different types of transwomen.

Do you mind if I ask you a question? Feel free not to answer if it's too private.

Would you agree that the transwomen who are attracted to men are less of a threat that those who are attracted to women? That the fetish tends to lie with the latter?

Is it reasonable to assume that the percentages of homosexual transwomen vs heterosexual transwomen are similar to those in the non-trans community?

Because it is indeed true that the het trans are shouting the loudest. But they seem to have proliferated massively in the last few years.

sticklebrix · 23/04/2017 23:05

There has to be some line there.

There is no line there. That's the concerning point.

Absolutely agree with WankingMonkey. Transsexual people are being lumped in with people like Muscato.

IAmEatingACurry · 23/04/2017 23:08

I'll be honest here and say I'm not sure what the situation in the UK is at the moment Blush

I realise we don't have a gender identity law (yet...) however I know policies in schools and hospitals have been changed to allow boys/men who identify as girls/women to be allowed to use female toilets, changing rooms and female wards on hospitals. These policy changes clearly state that any female who objects will be told to shut up and put up basically.

So I'm not sure how telling someone who is very clearly male but simply identifies as female to leave female toilets and changing rooms will go down right now in the UK. However I do know that if gender identity laws are passed here then you will most certainly be charged with a hate crime for asking someone like Danielle to leave the female toilets.

Datun · 23/04/2017 23:10

PhyllisNights

Well obviously I don't mean to upset you. But I disagree profoundly that a person can change sex.

The fact that it was that the part of my post that you addressed, rather than the actual point I was making is what makes this so linguistically and unecessarily complicated.

IAmEatingACurry · 23/04/2017 23:14

Datun I'm not sure tbh.

I do know that the transwomen who I know personally (including myself) are all attracted to men. I also know that we all just want to get on with our lives without too much fuss and without infringing on anyone elses spaces.

I haven't met a transwomen who was attracted to women personally (that I know of anyway). However I do know that the transwomen who are shouting the loudest do seem to all be attracted to women.

So perhaps you are right.

PhyllisNights · 23/04/2017 23:15

"If your friend is a transwomen and is attracted to men, he is essentially a homosexual man (despite identifying as a woman - you can't change sex). "

Sorry, but does no one else see why I find this offensive? Please, anyone in this thread, help me out here? I feel like I'm losing my mind.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 23/04/2017 23:17

I can see why you find it offensive phyllis

The trouble is you are coming at it from a different way than others on this thread

Which is why you are having such trouble with what people are saying on here

Sleep on it Thanks

sticklebrix · 23/04/2017 23:19

Phyllis I think that you find this offensive because you care about your friend and suspect that this might hurt his feelings.