Do you think some of the driver for "a woman is anyone who says they are a woman" is to do with bad science teaching in the US?

[QuentinSummers]

Just reading this thread on Reddit and loads of the posts are very scientifically naive. I can't decide if posters are being disingenuous or are just very uneducated about basic science.
It got me wondering whether the American thing of teaching creationism as equally valid a theory as evolution has generally undermined science and critical thinking.

[VestalVirgin]

I did get accused of being a horrible person once for stating biological facts, however I'm certainly not the only one.

No, indeed. I got this in Germany, by university students. German schools have very high standards. There is no doubt this person knew the scientific facts, she just chose to selectively forget them for the duration of the conversation. (But certainly remembered them in time to take her contraception pill)

[AssassinatedBeauty]

SSR, yes, there are some people who have genetic conditions that result in intersex conditions. That doesn't negate the fact that someone's sex can be determined by their genetics though. It also doesn't mean that a MTT can become female or that a FTT can become male.

[BeyondUser24601]

Anyway, what does intersex have to do with the op or any post apart from your whataboutery?

[QuentinSummers]

flogging it's odd isn't it that social media isn't full of "a man is anyone who says they are a man" tropes
SSR as you know in over 99% of cases chromosomes are analogous to genitalia and to sex.
In the

[SSR24479]

Swyer syndrome?

[QuentinSummers]

Zzzzzz zzzzzz

Anyway, it seems people largely agree that bad science education in the US could be damaging critical thinking. Scary thought when US content dominates social media.

[wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool]

Chromosomes help define sex not gender.

I agree there is plenty of confusion over the difference between sex and gender. I always say sex, or biological sex in humans (mammals) is about reproducing bodies. These two bodies have the capacity to reproduce, these two bodies don't. This includes intersex people who might have different reproductive function BASED ON SEXUAL DIFFERENCE. Also even if you were unconscious, or a giraffe, with no conception of gendered stereotypes you could still wake up pregnant. Unavoidable objective fact that is no different whether you understand the biology of it or not.


That thread reminds me of conversations I've had with otherwise intelligent people I know who live in Brighton, where genders is rife along with all sorts of other woo and quackery.

[QuentinSummers]

I wonder if any TRAs have started using chat bots yet?

[SSR24479]

It's really offensive to claim people with a medical issue aren't "real men/women". And it's totally irrelevant to transgender people who's chromosomes and genitalia match. Intersex people aren't intersex based on a feeling/identity.

I was pointing out that your argument is the one that states people with chromosome disorders aren't 'real men/women'. Transgender people aren't transgender based on just feeling/identity either, to be honest. It's a very complex psychological issue. People who claim to be trans cause 'I feel like today I'm a woman' aren't trans, but you people are so dense and uninformed you believe that those morons represent the entire community.

[QuentinSummers]

Oh yes! Brighton can be like that. Don't get me started on homeopathy

[BeyondUser24601]

I'm just gonna turn on that imaginary block poster option tbh.

Ha, chat bots!!

[SSR24479]

I'd honestly like to know what people in this thread would do if they had a child who claimed they were transgender. Support them and do everything you can to make them happy, or the opposite, resulting in them cutting you out of their life or killing themself.

'id take them to therapy and fix them' doesn't work all of the time

[QuentinSummers]

I was pointing out that your argument is the one that states people with chromosome disorders aren't 'real men/women'.

For clarity, my argument is that lack of scientific understanding about things like what a species is and how Linnean classification works, is preventing people from engaging in a meaningful discussion about how to define a woman.
Nothing to do with whether intersex people are "real women". Or whether anyone is a "real woman".
But go right ahead and argue with your own strawman. Hope you enjoy it. I'm not replying to you again.

[wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool]

Oh Quentin, we could have a coffee and a debrief sometime. Energy healing by email ftw?

[QuentinSummers]

I will take your energy healing and raise you crystal therapy

[SSR24479]

For clarity, my argument is that lack of scientific understanding about things like what a species is and how Linnean classification works, is preventing people from engaging in a meaningful discussion about how to define a woman.

You are very smart aren't you. I'm trying to have a 'meaningful discussion' with you right now, but am being met with snarky comments. I want to understand what goes through your mind and why you feel so strongly about other people's genitals and what they do with their lives, because I think it's kinda weird.

[wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool]

Ooh nice move www.mumsnet.com/emo/te/x4.gif.pagespeed.ic.-btgXlP15N.png

[Datun]

you believe that those morons represent the entire community.

It wasn't feminists who wanted to include morons in the trans-ideology. Or cross dressing fetishists, autogynephiles, chancers, voyeurs or predators.

Nope, I don't remember feminists drawing up a list of every lowlife in the country and deciding that they could be trans.

'Anyone who says they are trans is trans' said no feminist ever.

[BigDeskBob]

Everyone knows what a man and woman is. Otherwise what are trans trying to transform from and to? Trans are simply people who want to be perceived as the other sex.

But for some reason, somewhere down the line, this 'want' has become 'is'. Hence, transwomen are women, and I assume there's a quiet chant at the back of the room saying 'transmen are men'.

To justify this nonsense, people use bits of biology they don't understand. And others who don't want to think too hard nod along.

I've had grown adult males who have fathered children tell me they are female and its true because of complicated science facts. Do you think they have ever taken a pregnancy test?

[VestalVirgin]

it's odd isn't it that social media isn't full of "a man is anyone who says they are a man" tropes

Especially since the only people who can't just identify as the other sex and reap all the benefits from that are ... British noblewomen who would inherit titles and estates if they were actually male, but for some reason (why might that be?) have been banned from identifying their way to those advantages.

It's almost like women are oppressed because of our biology and not just because we identify as members of the oppressed class. Funny thing, that.

[Datun]

Said no self-respecting-not-mentally-handicapped-trans-individual-ever.

No argument here.

[SirVixofVixHall]

OP this is an interesting question, I think you have made a good point. Spend any time on Twitter and the constant outrage at the idea that being female is not a feeling, and can't be one's "true authentic self"if you are male, as sex can't be changed, comes as quite a shock.
(btw, Re using "gender", when I was growing up gender did mean sex, it was used in that sense by my teachers, parents etc, rather than the modern meaning. Certainly that usage was normal for me and I went to a v sciencey all girls school. What is now just called gender, I would have called "gender identity").

[SSR24479]

I also don't understand the logic that 'it's because they have penises' that they're not allowed in the bathroom. It sounds like you genuinely want there to be a bathroom monitor to check everyone's genitals to see who's allowed and who isn't. Like people with vaginas can't sexually assault someone.

[Datun]

SSR24479

Sexual violence and sexual assault is a gendered crime. 98% of sexual assault is committed by men. 90% of violent crime is committed by men.

Statistics. Illuminating little devils.