Misgendered trans people doth protest too much

[joystir59]

Just that really- as a short grey haired lesbian I sometimes get called sir. Does it send me screaming abuse at the perpetrator as if they have committed a major crime and I am mortally offended? Nope. Because I know what I am. So its water off a lesbian's back. Trans people scream blue murder because basically they are living a lie and cant stand being reminded of what they really are- men pretending to be women. What do others think?

Great argument Knicknack, lets exclude transgender women in case peodophiles want to pretend to be children. We must draw the line somewhere, and ergo trans women are just rapists pretending to be women.

Well I would argue that if we are saying women need safe spaces as they are vulnerable to male abuse then my transgender daughter is just as vulnersble, if no more. Let her in!

I feel for your child but allowing any trans people into women’s safe spaces allows those spaces to be compromised by men who are predatory and will take advantage. This is not saying that trans people are predatory but that self id will allow predators to exploit huge loopholes.

Your child’s right to be kept safe from male violence can’t be at the expense of exposing all women to even more male violence, which is what will happen if anyone can claim to be a man and access women’s spaces.

Let’s find a solution that keeps your child safe as well as women, instead of weakening safeguards that will throw half the population under the bus. I would absolutely campaign with you for alternative ways to address trans people’s safety.

There will never be safe spaces for transgender women - as there are to few of them. If they do ever exist they will be too few and far between. Would you, Bonion, accept a transitioned transgendered woman into your safe space? At what point would you accept a transgendered woman? After surgery?

You're missing the point. Once you legislate that someone can self identify as something that in reality they are not, there are massive implications. They can't be ignored.

The transgender movement has enormous amounts of funding - far far more than women's movements - and a lot of political power and weight. As a very small minority, they've got further in a couple of years than any other movement has managed in decades. If they want gender neutral spaces they will have them, and most women here would gladly join in campaigning for them.

Would you, Bonion, accept a transitioned transgendered woman into your safe space?

Some women will not be able to. Culture, religion, experience of violence, having been a victim of abuse or crime, mental health needs - some women will not be able to share a safe space with someone male bodied. Ever. Where do those women go?

This is not about individuals.

Lets get away from the Self ID issue. Will you allow fully transitioned transgender women who have not Self IDed into women only spaces? Will you accept they are women?

See above. It isn't about what I'd do. Some women can't .

I’m not sure feminist4. I’m finding my feet on this and whilst it wouldn’t have been a problem before, I’m hesitant now because of how many of the boundaries have been pushed. I’m more protective of biological truths than I was before and feel it’s important to deal with material reality. Personally, I think I wouldn’t have a problem with someone who has undergone surgery accessing my spaces but I wouldn’t want to speak for everyone and wouldn’t want my own boundaries to prevent other women from asserting theirs.

What are your thoughts on self id? Do you think it’s a good idea? Do you think stonewall has got it right with their very broad definition of transpeople? At the moment there isn’t a way to distinguish people who have had surgery and those who have not, which reinforces my feeling that as it stands, sex-segregation is still needed.

My objection on this board is the stigmatising the vast majority of transgender women by classing them in the same group as Ian Huntley and Karen White. They are a vulnerable minority who need the protection of female only rape crisis centres as much (if not more) than any woman. To bar them is transphobic and abhorrent to me.

You're avoiding answering any direct questions about anyone else's interests.

They may be a vulnerable minority. What will their presence do to the other very vulnerable users, some of whom will not be able to use the centre if they are there? This isn't rejection, this is conflict of needs. Women's facilities aren't available for any male in need, new facilities with new briefs must be created. Glad to campaign for that.

What I’ve seen isn’t classing them together but pointing out that there isn’t any way to tell who would be an abusive predator who is exploiting the system in the way that Huntley and White have done. I’ve not seen anyone say they’re the same as all transpeople or that all transpeople are violent abusers. It’s merely pointing out a huge flaw in the proposed new laws.

Presumably your child wants to escape male violence by using services that don’t have men. I can’t see how opening up women’s spaces to men would be anything other than diminishing the safety of women by exposing them to male violence. That isn’t an acceptable compromise to me.

But truly, I’d campaign for alternatives. Women’s spaces and disabled people’s spaces weren’t easily won but they were achieved. I’d support you in fighting for other spaces but it can’t be at the cost of women.

There presence will do nothing to harm other vulnerable users. There is no reason other vulnerable users will not be able to use the centre. Can you tell me exactly why other vulnerable users won't be able to use the centre? There will not be males present at the centre.

Their, not there. Sorry

In the context of self ID there isn’t a way of telling if their presence would be harmful because there would be no way to work out who was abusing the system. And given that up to 80% of transwomem haven’t had any gender reassignment surgery, and that I’d consider the presence of male gentials in vulnerable spaces very harmful, I’m still for sex segregation.

What are your thoughts on self id? Do you think it’s a good idea? Do you think stonewall has got it right with their very broad definition of transpeople?

I said elsewhere I'm not sure about Self ID. I understand the concerns about male prisoners identifying as female to escape from the abuse in a male prison may be a cause for a concern - and undermine the genuine transgender people who transition. Ian Huntley et al are obviously extremely messed up individuals and need special help. This must not be confused with genuine transgender women and men who need to be accepted not rebutted. On the other hand - at the moment - having to live as the sex you identify with, while still being identified in all your documents as your birth sex is very damaging and difficult, so there needs to be a better way.

My (transgender) daughter would find it very upsetting having to be seen in male only spaces because she was excluded from the female only spaces. I think that is horribly discriminatory and unfair.

People, as with all beliefs, are, and should be absolutely entitled to identify as whatever they want.

Nobody has the right to compel others to share that belief though.

People have every right to say that transwomen are women. People also have every right not to believe that, and not to be forced to pretend to share that belief.

Men have every right to say they are a woman. They have no right to be treated as a woman.

My (transgender) daughter would find it very upsetting having to be seen in male only spaces because she was excluded from the female only spaces

Why not put your considerable energy towards fighting for specific spaces for your daughter, rather than fighting to remove the spaces and freedoms of others?

And the needs of your daughter take precedence over women who don't want to share space with males?

Why don't they have the right to be treated as a woman? I see my daughter as a woman? She sees herself as a woman? Why do you have the right to define her differently? It is discriminatory, in the same way that women were discriminated against for being weaker? Biologically different and therefore not capable of equality. My daughter should not have to go through the door that says Male, as she is not male.

How many actual rapists do you envisage hunting out their victims in a rape crisis centre?

I think we have a lot in common feminist and I’m sure there’s a way to ensure the safety, privacy and dignity of everyone. I just don’t think self id and dismantling sex-segregation is that way.

Why don't they have the right to be treated as a woman? I see my daughter as a woman? She sees herself as a woman? Why do you have the right to define her differently

Transwomen are male. This is a fact that is not changed by you and your daughter's belief.

What about women whose religions forbid them to accept male bodied people in their spaces regardless of how those male bodied people feel or identify? What about women who have been abused because of male violence and cannot undress or sleep in a space where male bodied people are?

This is the sticking point of trans ideology. Gender identity and sex are not the same thing, and this cannot be erased. People cannot be forced to stop seeing sex.