Misgendered trans people doth protest too much

[joystir59]

Just that really- as a short grey haired lesbian I sometimes get called sir. Does it send me screaming abuse at the perpetrator as if they have committed a major crime and I am mortally offended? Nope. Because I know what I am. So its water off a lesbian's back. Trans people scream blue murder because basically they are living a lie and cant stand being reminded of what they really are- men pretending to be women. What do others think?

In much the same way, an excess of makeup on a woman to me starts to push the wearer towards looking masculine, not feminine, because they start to look drag-like.

That is one of many reasons I dodge the slap.

I keep thinking cis women are trans women. I often misgender them, especially if they are tall and broad

And is it reasonable for these misgendered women to scream and shout abuse and you for misgenderimg them ?
After all you are being a hateful bigot by misgendering them surely they would be justified in giving you a slap?

I am starting to get the impression that "Feminist"4 is prone to saying things for effect.

Another zombie thread bumped, Feminist4?

Take the typical office sentence "See him over there? He forgot his pass." If said about a trans woman that's 3 times the existence of one of the most important features of their life has casually been denied

I know totally what you mean. I was at the school gate the other day picking up my mindees and a woman said to me “ I like your daughters coat, where did you buy it for her ? “

I was outraged ! That’s twice she causally denied the existence of one of the most important features of my life - my childlessness - in one sentence.

And then, she made it worse by saying “ what are you doing for Hanukkah ? “ ( it’s a Jewish school ).

Yet again, had causally denied the existence of one of the important aspects of my life, because I am Roman Catholic and not Jewish. It’s as if she said to me over and over again “ there’s no such thing as Catholics ”.

Once I saw the same woman offer a Haribo to a Muslim child who was playing with her child in the park. Which of completely denies the existence of all the Muslims in the works and denies the validity of Islam as a major world religion.

This is the kind of bigotry and hatred I have to deal with on a daily basis.

I think it's a harsh generalisation in very blunt language, but that doesn't make it essentially untrue, and I women have the right to be angry about it.

This is often framed in terms of 'how does it harm you to respect this person's choices?' and 'it's just simple politeness', and as a pp says 'it gives great joy or sense of failure when you don't'.

But it is in essence about how appropriate it can ever be to put the responsibility of personal happiness into the hands of total strangers - regardless of those strangers' feelings, beliefs, personal view of reality or willingness to enter into meeting the needs of the person who is requiring it - and about whether it is right to control, dictate and police the language of others. Or insist that they lie and deny reality in the best interests of someone else. Particularly when it's a movement containing a very vocal, very politically strong group who have taken 'she' as a polite recognition of how someone obviously male would like to be addressed and now want to eradicate the word 'woman', separate it from biology, prevent women having an independent political voice or right to assemble or be in a state of undress away from males, and to have police punishments for those who refuse coercive control over their language.

This is a way bigger debate now, with way bigger stakes, than simply the feelings of any two people having a conversation. It was not women who pushed social politeness until it broke.

It is only important to trsnsgender women because some people are trying to deny them of the right to be considered a woman. They would love it not to be an issue.

You can't give someone a right to be considered in a certain way. It's not a right it is possible to enforce - you can't mind control people to believe what you want them to, no matter how much you long for them to.

My kids who have Austim typically say things the opposite way so say he for she and vice versa. It hurts no one.

Nobody is going to blame a genuine misgendering. It is the vitriolic and mean spirited exclusory misgendering which is unacceptable.

No, countes, and you can't impose your views about your rights on others, which you are attempting to do.

Why should it be a 'right' to be considered something you objectively are not? Particularly when it's a subjective wish to be considered part of an oppressed group, and that consideration equals access to resources specifically allocated for that group?

Can you see any downsides to a right to be considered disabled, and entitled to those legal resources, when objectively and biologically you are not disabled? Considered a child and entitled to children's resources when objectively and biologically you're fifty three? What effect will it have on the resources, the experiences, the social recognition and respect for those who do have those characteristics and can't identify out of them? Where is the line about how offensive it is to want to enact features people were actually born with?

This is exceptionally self centred, selfish thinking. Your personal right to wave you arms around ends at someone else's nose.

Oh don't be silly. No one can 'impose' by stating a personal view and evidenced argument. You're not imposing, I'm not imposing, this is a discussion.

The GRA will be imposing, and as demonstrated here, it isn't a straightforward matter in any way.

Well I would argue that if we are saying women need safe spaces as they are vulnerable to male abuse then my transgender daughter is just as vulnersble, if no more. Let her in!

It is not a 'wish'to be female. Their identity is female.

Can I help you with pointing out evidence about 98% of violence being committed by males? The massive disproportionality of it? And the whole reason we currently have sex segregation?

I have absolutely no doubt your transgender daughter is vulnerable.

Removing safety for all women does nothing to solve that for anyone, and creates a whole lot more problems for 52% of the population as well as your daughter, plus has far, far wider negative ramifications.

The answer isn't that your daughter or any transwomen or males enter women's safe spaces, the answer is the creation of third spaces.

An identity is not a biological sex.

Should people be able to identify, based on their subjective, internal sense of themselves, into a group of people who have objective characteristics, and share in their resources and protections?

Are you up for trans children? Trans abled? See any potential issues there?

This shouldn't be a legal right. This is not what law is for.

Trans age I think is the term, not trans children - adults who identify as children.

Most of what I am is because I have determined it to be that way. I'm not racist, I am law abiding, I am a teacher, I have cats. These things define me. I was lucky enough to be born into the sex I identify with at a time when these men and women who are transitioning need as much inclusion and support as possible into the sex they identify with.

I know nothing about trans age and can't give an opinion. I do know about transgender women.

Support, yes. Inclusion into the sex they identify with, there are limits around specific biological based realities of that sex where their inclusion negatively affects people of that sex. At that point, different resources need to be created. It can't be all about the individual, there is a massive knock on effect on women's rights here, and they have to be protected.

Trans age is a thing. Really. So is trans abled. If it's fixed in law that someone can subjectively identify as something they are not, and must be legally included as if they had the characteristics they identify as having, it will be very difficult to draw the line for example and prevent middle aged men identifying into children's facilities. Try googling Stephonknee Wolscht, a well known transwoman who advised the Canadian Government and identifies as a six year old little girl.

What's with bumping zombie threads?

Did you go up to each one and check you got their sex right by asking them? If not, how do you know you got it correct?