Trans law in USA

[sassandfaff]

Trump administration rescinds transgender students' bathroom protections

Trump pulls transgender law

Toronto university have had to withdraw their "gender neutral" facilities after men wer found videoing women in showers on at least two separate occasions.

Dan, that's fine in principle but it's Malcolm that's bashing the door down and has the ear of the Government. How do you keep him out while letting Rachel in?

Do you think these universal individual toilets will all appear everywhere? At the same time?

Some will just stay as cubicles and have a unisex sticker on the door.

You don't have to "get it". You just have to recognise that many other women don't want men in intimate women's spaces.

Most will stay the same I think.

That is the question. How to weed out the Malcolms. Maybe by leaving it as it is with a blind eye to the Rachels until we can sort out unisex safe loos for all. Win win for me as a mother of boys. If men are so dangerous in loos surely it can only benefit our young boys. It would be interesting to see how many boys are attacked in men's loos compared with the amount of women attacked in women's.

It still seems to me that abusive men are the real enemy, not the Rachels.

It still seems to me that abusive men are the real enemy, not the Rachels.

Still don't get the women need women's loos for dignity thing. Sorry, I don't see it.

Cool, good for you. By admission you're a practical nudist and the only time you've been harassed was by a lesbian.

That's very different to most women's experience. My daughter is twelve and has already been subjected to intimidating sexual behaviour from men and boys.

i would like her to have a female space to pee, is that okay?

Again you are not reading what I said. I have been harassed numerous times by men. I have been raped once as an adult. I had a relative touch me in appropriately as a teenager and was regularly abused and raped by an older child from before I can remember until nine. Maybe that gives me a slightly fucked up view of boundaries. I still don't feel at risk with the idea of unisex loos if they are done properly.

That might be the case, but you can't weed them out.
That is the point.

Just the same as you can't weed out the abusers or the rapist. They all walk around under the heading man. And unfortunately it's very hard to tell the good uns from the bad uns.

But you are still looking at this from their perspective. You are asking questions and twisting wording in an effort to make trans women have access to female spaces.

I don't care if they are all Rachels. I'm happy for them to have separate spaces, I'm happy for them to share unisex toilet with their own biological gender, I'm happy for them to be called trans women.

I'm not happy for them to be recognised as women. I'm not happy for them to go to a women's prison. I'm not happy for them to deny my right to identify problems unique to women (periods, cramps, pregnancy, labour, breastfeeding feeding, menopause etc) and demand we stop talking about them as they are exclusive to them.

After watching magdalene Bern's videos, I'm not happy that they can try to demand that lesbians do not discriminate against them just because they have a penis. Wtf.

I'd love to see a gay guy's face if I demand he doesn't discriminate on the grounds that I have a vaginal!

That's the God damn reason he doesn't find me attractive in the first time.

They are coming across as the entitled men, that they actually are.

They are just another group of men who demand that we put their feelings/ rights first.

Fuck that.

Isn't that the reason for feminism in the 1st place?

I'm fine with people debating what I have actually said. I'm slightly pissed off that you haven't taken into account the horrific abuse I have already mentioned! I'm far from being a mindless male supporter. I have had a shit load of survivor counselling to get where I am today.

Dan - it's men who have done those things. I also have bloody good reasons not to want to share a loo with men, the incidents in voyeurism alone are skyrocketing.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. My past has given me a fucked up view of lots of things. My counselling helped me come to terms with that. Being sexualised as a toddler means that I developed a slightly warped view on lots of things. Maybe it is something I will never understand.

You said you couldn't see why it was a dignity issue for women. That's not particularly empathetic, is it? That's why you're getting lumped in with men, because you're basically saying fuck you to the women who don't want to share their intimate spaces with men. Many of these women are also survivors.

dan

You're trying to find the layer in transactivisism that is made up of people like Miranda and Helen and find a solution which will benefit them, benefit women, and keep out the predators.

Firstly, I use Miranda and Helen a lot because there are very few transwomen who hold their opinions. Or if there are, their silence is deafening. Why aren't they standing up in massive numbers saying not in our name? If they are truly women, why are they not helping us?

Secondly, I don't buy the 'born in the wrong body' narrative. Do you tell an anorexic that mother nature made a huge biological cock up because she should've been born skeletal? Do you to tell a trans-abled person that it is a horrible twist of fate that made them be born with four functioning limbs and not the paraplegic they yearn to be?

Gender dysphoria is real. But it is not a biological mistake. It is distress over a body part.

It should not be given civil rights.

You asked what are the percentage of genuine trans-women? My interpretation of that would be what are the percentage of people with gender dysphoria who don't want to appropriate women's rights/spaces?

I don't know the numbers. But well over 80% of transwomen keep, and use, their male genitalia. That should give you an indication.

The remaining 20% who aren't interested in appropriating women's spaces, because they are essentially gay and attracted to men presumably don't really care that much about the political situation. So although you are thinking of them, they are not really thinking of you (not in a nasty way, they're just not bothered).

I don't understand how unisex toilets take away dignity. I have had workplaces with unisex loos and the only issue has been men who don't lift the seat. I am massively empathic to anyone who has suffered abuse. I get most of the other arguments. I just can't see the issue with unisex loos. I haven't been abusive to anyone or even said that they are wrong. I am one of the most open minded, forgiving people you could meet. I truly, even as an abuse survivor, don't see the downside of unisex loos done properly. I would understand single sex tube trains more to be honest as I have felt more threatened there than in any loo.

Datun. I think you get me. Maybe I am too empathic to the Rachels. I want to fight for the underdog. I see these people who are obviously very conflicted in their own minds and want to help them. I also have a theory for true trans people which is physical and not mental which probably clouds my judgement.

I mentioned up thread about how the likelihood of these single self contained toilets were a unlikelihood.

Do you think every eating establishment, hotel, sports facility etc etc etc, is going to spend huge amounts of money on this refurbishment?

It's just not going to happen.

I think from your posts you want the unisex toilets for everyone's safety, but you don't want them recognised as women, because you would not be happy with them being in a woman's prison.

So in effect it's not really their safety that you are primarily bothered about, it is that you just can't muster up the anti feeling that the rest of us have.

Am I right?

About toilets.

Just save a little bit of your empathy for women dan.

dan

The only criticism of unisex toilets is partly because men tend to piss everywhere and partly the issue of if they open out into a general area with the mirror and the sinks,etc.

There is no issue per se if they opened out onto a general corridor.

However, the real issue is why do we have to go to a tremendous amount of expense and invest an awful lot of time, to pander to a movement, which we all massively disagree with?

And if you think unisex bathrooms, toilets and locker rooms will satisfy the transactivists, you couldn't be more wrong. They have been offered it countless times and turned it down on the basis that is it's 'othering'. If there was a unisex option and a woman's only option they want the woman's one.

I really don't think you're getting it. It is a deliberate, purposeful, intense campaign to get where women are. Whether it is for validation or because they have a kink or just because they're bloody-minded men's rights activists, who knows.

So yes, unisex options would work on paper. But it is only the thinnest edge of the thinnest wedge.

I wouldn't mind single unisex cubicles off a corridor with sinks inside. Anything else, no thanks. Just because you can't personally wrap your brain around why sharing intimate spaces with men violates the boundaries, privacy and dignity of many women, doesn't mean it's not true.

Women are just as much the underdogs as transwomen are. Doesn't it tell you something that it's women who are expected to do all the accommodating? And that no one gives a fuck what they might feel about it?

"My straight woman privilege probably. In no way do I ever feel scared/threatened by lesbian or have any belief that they are violent as a group."

No worries about offence and bugger privilege checking! :-)

Just that I've seen this before several times, the attempts by some (not you, I get that!) to try and equate butch lesbians and transwomen. Myself and my missus get 'mis-gendered' all the time using public loos. But it's not a problem usually, because we are both female, and most women can recognise that given a chance. Which is the essential difference, we're female, and a transwoman isn't. Biology and sex matters.