Trans law in USA

[sassandfaff]

Trump administration rescinds transgender students' bathroom protections

Trump pulls transgender law

I think most woman have a similar story.

These concerns are not baseless.

Why is trans women's concern for assault from men, trumping ours?

That is the question that needs answering.

My reply was to my own personal stories of sexual assault by men.

"Why is trans women's concern for assault from men, trumping ours? " Excellent point.

I think the real question is how can we make all areas safe for everyone. Men are the main abusers. I would rather have loos safe for my son and everyone else than to insist on women only areas and fuck everyone else. It also lulls people into a false sense of security. I am on guard when in a deserted women's loo, there isn't a machine to check for vaginas at the door. I would feel safer with cubicles opening into a busy area rather than walking into a room where I can't see who is hiding behind walls and doors.

dan

I know what you are saying. There are some fabulous transwomen. Miranda Yardley and Helen Highwater are two. They are utterly on the side of women when it comes to defining the word. They don't want to use our bathrooms and they are on record saying if you don't want women to think you are controlling abusive men, stop acting like it.

Genuine transwomen (for want of a better word) aren't the slightest bit interested in appropriating female rights.

So you might want to consider why there is such a hoo ha over it.

Because people like Helen and Miranda are in the minority. They are not the problem. What this legislation has done, is allowed a whole raft of other people who should never be in women and children spaces the right to access them. And yes a lot of them do identify as trans.

There are very many different reasons for transitioning and one of them is very definitely sexually motivated. They are still trans though.

And people like Miranda and Helen are getting caught in the crossfire and are being thrown under the bus just as much as women.

Do I want any man to be in my bathroom? No. Not if I have no choice. Would I have extended courtesy to people like Miranda and Helen? Yes.

I'm not against having areas that are safe for everyone.
I have 3 dd's and a ds. I want them all to get safe, so yes, locked individual toilets would be an idea I could get on board with, but I'd still like them to be female and male labelled.
I do not want to sit on a toilet that men from the general public has been on. I've been in unisex toilets, they are disgusting.
We have to sit on that seat unless you hover.
And with all the best will in the world, and having a df, a dB and a dp, no one will convince me that males are on the whole are just as hygienic.

Datun very well put

I think its the right thing to do, transmen and woman should have their own bathrooms or they should use the bathroom of the sex they actually are, not the sex they feel they are.

I know someone who identifies as a transwomen but he doesn't look like a woman - he normally has a bit of stubble, dresses in old dirty looking clothing which are ill-fitting. Now he goes out like this, goes to work like this etc. but he has recently announced he is a transwoman lesbian and that he will pursue relationships with woman. the reality is hes a man in a frock wanting to shag woman... I know some people who work with him and the woman there are horrified and refused to use the same bathroom as him as they feel hes just a dirty old man wanting to perve at woman in the toilet. cant say I blame them really.

Datun that is very nearly what I am trying to say. I just vary on the percentages. Is it the majority or minority with sincere beliefs. I am sure some of the sincere ones would love to be able to use the ladies discreetly and with no intention to upset or offend but also feel that competing in female sports events, taking scholarships, being in female prisons is wrong too. You know, reasonable people just wanting to get on with their lives in peace. It is just the percentages I am unsure of.

Datun that is very nearly what I am trying to say. I just vary on the percentages. Is it the majority or minority with sincere beliefs. I am sure some of the sincere ones would love to be able to use the ladies discreetly and with no intention to upset or offend but also feel that competing in female sports events, taking scholarships, being in female prisons is wrong too. You know, reasonable people just wanting to get on with their lives in peace. It is just the percentages I am unsure of.

I think by most people's interpretation here of what a reasonable genuine transwoman is, the majority are probably sincere in their beliefs as you put it. The trouble is, that's not all the men who "identify" as trans or non binary. So I think the genuine ones are the minority.

I suppose I'm not happy with the idea of penalising the genuine for the behaviour of others. Maybe a better way of putting it is fighting for the rights of everyone not to be put in danger. I am sure most parents would rather a safe unisex loo arrangement than the current system of sending ten year old boys off into the loos by themselves. Prevention would be better though. Why are those men so angry. What happens between the little boy who loves his mummy and the violent sex attacker adult male. How do we minimise the amount of damaged men? I may be idealistic but want a world where we can all be safe, whatever the content of our undies.

I may be idealistic but want a world where we can all be safe, whatever the content of our undies

that is an idealistic stance because the reality is that thing in your undies gives you physical attributes and mental attributes that are impossible to get away from.

Why should women be penalised in having to share our intimate spaces with men though? It's not just about safety.

If it isn't about safety what is it about? To be fair I am a bit of a nudist at heart so maybe am not getting the issue.

But Dan, how is it penalising a transwoman to have to go to a unisex or men's bathroom to pee?

If everyone who feels like a woman today is allowed into the womens' then the womens' is no more safe or private than the mens for anyone - ie. we've gone from the women's risk being low, and the mens risk being high (although, again, I've yet to see proof of this) to both the women's and the mens risk being high - ie. no-one has been helped, and women have been materially harmed!

Why is it so terrible for transwomen and men to be made uncomfortable if a transwoman goes and pees in the mens, but totally fine for women to be made uncomfortable if the the transwoman pees in the women's?

Especially given that more men I speak to are fine about women peeing in the mens than women I speak to are about men peeing in the womens - ie. most blokes don't care.

dan your view is quite patronising and I don't think your half as dumb as your making out.

But if there were unisex for all why would women be penalised? I seriously don't get it. Safer opening out onto a busy area , self contained loos for all. The only thing I can see is cleanliness but the state some women leave the toilet in astounds me so there isn't a massive argument there either.

We agree that Unisex would be a solution, but the issue here isn't around unisex, it's around transwomen wanting the right to use the womens', and transwomen being defined as anyone who says they're a woman.

I'm not meaning to patronise or be argumentative for the sake of it. I seriously do not understand the issue. I have happily used unisex loos in the past with no ill effects. I really, honestly do not get the issue. Safety I understand. I am happy to change my point of view if there is a good reason. Maybe to help you understand where I am coming from. I am a bisexual woman who has never needed to share that information widely as I am in a relationship with a man and have kids. People tend to assume that I am straight. I have recently joined a LGBT group at work to sort of counteract a homophobic undercurrent in my particular office. It has made me consider more deeply issues surrounding my sexuality. I'm not meaning to offend or be argumentative but I suppose am trashing out in my own head how I feel about all sorts of issues surrounding equal rights. So this is kind of a safe sounding board. My ideas aren't totally fixed in place if you see what I mean?

I'm also not sure about the whole 'self identify' thing. That does make me uncomfortable and maybe where the problem lies for me. I see a huge difference between Rachel living as a woman and Malcolm, a man in high heels.

The current system of turning a blind eye to the Rachels whilst not accepting the Malcolms seems to work okay at the moment in my mind. When I was a teenager you could get in pubs and have a couple of vodka and oranges and the landlord turned a blind eye. If you caused any sort of issue you were straight out. This seems similar to me.

Well exactly. Entrance into the women's for non-women is a privilege, not a right.

The law that trump just revoked, made school's funding contingent on them letting people into whichever changing or toilet facility they felt like.

Now, we can say that girls are allowed to have a girls changing room, that males aren't allowed in, and the government will still fund you.

You can say that this is the girls swimming race, and males can't enter.

It's about privacy and dignity and women's boundaries as well as safety. And most people aren't "nudists". So they are deeply uncomfortable with men in their spaces. Why should their feelings be trumped by transwomen's?

Ahh now we are getting somewhere. I don't agree with a law that insists that any schoolboy Malcolm can get into the girls changing room as long as there is give and take when it comes to Rachel. The worry I always have with the US is the fundamental Christians going against any type of inclusive behaviour. Well most of their straight white middle class 'this is God's will behaviour to be honest. Still don't get the women need women's loos for dignity thing. Sorry, I don't see it.