Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jack Monroe

325 replies

MercyMyJewels · 22/01/2017 17:52

twitter.com/MxJackMonroe/status/822996532228227078

Welcome back Jack

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
DeviTheGaelet · 23/01/2017 21:15

Trans is defined as when your gender identity doesn't match your birth sex.
Jack is saying that although she recognises herself as a biological woman she doesn't have a woman gender identity. Therefore she is trans.
This exposes a big hole in trans logic as I believe a lot of people don't have a gender identity and therefore are technically trans

tygr · 23/01/2017 21:20

Trans as a term has expanded now to include lots of different expressions of gender, including things like gender fluid (feeling male at some times and female at others) or non-binary or androgynous and many many others.

It's not necessarily about transitioning from one sex to another.

I suspect Jack fits more into that part of the trans identity spectrum than a strictly binary part.

Ps I'm not trans so might not have the terminology correct.

MumtoBelle · 23/01/2017 21:22

Yes to the poster who mentioned her DS. I think he'll grow up with problems.

TheFirstMrsDV · 23/01/2017 21:23

That makes no sense to me at all pencils Confused

I don't hate her tygr but I can't agree with the 'she didn't really ask for all the attention.....' She has. Even her fans must surely admit that.
She has made announcements. She has written articles and she has come on to MN to give us all the change to ask her questions. Uninvited, randomly.

She is free to wear what she wants and sleep with who she wants, call herself he/she or reject pronouns all together. I reckon most of us are totally cool with all that.

I am genuinely baffled by her need to announce it all on public media.

TheFirstMrsDV · 23/01/2017 21:24

Devi what does woman gender identity mean?

tygr · 23/01/2017 21:25

Yes to the poster who mentioned her DS. I think he'll grow up with problems.

Poverty and being the child of a famous person are pre-disposing risk factors so could've happened anyway.

As long as he's loved then that will be protective.

TheBogQueen · 23/01/2017 21:27

I think being a woman is very cool post Trump. Marching, protesting for women's rights - all good for SJws.

tygr · 23/01/2017 21:28

I think she's probably pretty insecure about herself and is craving validation but like a PP said, I feel more compassion towards her for that than anything else.

She's getting harsh judgment from trans women on twitter from what I've seen more than anyone else but I don't think we (assuming we're mostly female) should be kicking her too.

PinkPancakes · 23/01/2017 21:28

Orchidaceous has it right here.
Jack Monroe is definitely being brave to own her decisions so publicly and more power to her. She's young and bright and working all her stuff out. I'm sure loads of us on here have been in her shoes at one time or other, questioning stuff about being a woman, living in patriarchy, maybe struggling with finding our place in the feminism that is happening at the relevant time- I know I did. (With the added luxury of not being famous and doing all this pre-social media....).

I respect her for being open about her thinking and why shouldn't she be?
She's not 'attention seeking' by talking about it any more than anyone else is being attention seeking by thinking about these things and telling others about them.

There aren't any other people with a similar level of public profile that are up for talking about this in the same open way. So I think she is brave but in some ways quite vulnerable so people should lay off her.
Flowers Jack if you're reading.

DeviTheGaelet · 23/01/2017 21:33

MrsDV who the fuck knows? I think only trans people. Grin
It's all so weird. Rebecca Reilly Cooper does a good analysis of it.
www.rebeccarc.com/2016/01/06/gender-is-not-a-binary/

ellanutella8 · 23/01/2017 21:39

To be honest I was a massive fan of Jack at first. A cookbook with cheap ingredients yay. An out and proud and hot lesbian yay. Then it all got very confusing.

I think it's brilliant to fight passionately for what you believe in. I think it's honourable to be a role model. I also think it's sensible to have a clear, solid and unshakeable sense of self before you encourage others to follow you. A message with many alterations can get diluted.

tygr · 23/01/2017 21:41

I'm bi there I've just announced it on public media and I do understand that it is empowering to announce yourself as being a member of a minority, especially if it's otherwise invisible.

I once excitedly announced myself as queer on social media after reading a few articles about it and deciding it was better than bi. Only difference is I don't have media attention or thousands of social media followers.

Modern life is pretty complicated. Thank my lucky stars I'm not growing up now. I would definitely be confused about my gender.

WaitrosePigeon · 23/01/2017 21:48

It's worrying for the child involved, that is all. Not a stable home life whatsoever.

TheFirstMrsDV · 23/01/2017 21:54

Tygr I SO agree with your modern life is complicated comment.

I really think this is where JM has been tied up in knots. Not because she has had those thoughts, experiences or beliefs but because she is young and seems confused in a time where everything is instant, on display and remains on display for ever more.

I made a fair few of my own announcements as a young woman but they were said to my empty room or a pub full of pissed people.

I find JM interesting. I find her a bit annoying too but no more than I find tons of others annoying and its not her job NOT to annoy me Grin

I sort of cringe when she comes out with something big because I know its likely to set off a backlash and she strikes me as someone who is not that well equipped to deal with it.

Thanks for that link Devi I will have a look.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 23/01/2017 22:09

Thanks for the link Devi

She says Pure femininity is passivity, weakness and submission- not sure I agree with that. Passivity , weakness and submission are what they are. If she chooses to see that as feminine traits that's her definition.

I sort of cringe when she comes out with something big because I know its likely to set off a backlash and she strikes me as someone who is not that well equipped to deal with it

That is true. I'm puzzled by Jack Monroe. She is very pretty and to me her appearance is very feminine, even in her mannish outfits. I

Is she in her rejection of social constructs muddling up some sort of notion that if you look the way she does you are /have to be/ are assigned the role of being "passive, weak and submissive"? And then have to go around saying you are rejecting them ?

ScruffyTheJanitor · 23/01/2017 22:16

Why does she wear men's clothes?
If she was NonBinary, isn't presenting as male just being male binary? Swapping one for the other?
I don't get any of it :(

Pure femininity is passivity, weakness and submission
I totally disagree with this. From my limited male POV I see women as assertive, strong and decisive. How else could they be mothers without those traits? But that's obviously generalising a gender massively and I don't think that's fair as I dont fit into my gender at all.

tygr · 23/01/2017 22:28

Great article Devi

Gallavich · 23/01/2017 22:33

I totally disagree with this. From my limited male POV I see women as assertive, strong and decisive

That's kind of the point. 'Pure femininity' is something that most women are not. If 'gender' were binary then men would all be rugged, sporty and aggressively sexual and women would all be passive, gentle and nurturing. The fact that we all fall in varying places on that 'masculine/feminine' spectrum is what evidences that nobody has a binary or non binary gender because the whole concept is flawed.

tygr · 23/01/2017 22:34

If you have a female body and present in a masculine way by wearing stereotypically masculine clothes and doing stereotypically male things then you don't fit either binary, hence non-binary.

You can also do all those things, like I do actually, and still be a woman.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 23/01/2017 23:04

That's kind of the point. 'Pure femininity' is something that most women are not. If 'gender' were binary then men would all be rugged, sporty and aggressively sexual and women would all be passive, gentle and nurturing

But who decided that being passive gentle and nurturing is feminine ?

and doing stereotypically male things

What are they ? That is a serious question ? Why do you see things you like doing as "stereotypically male" as opposed to just being things you like ?

Gallavich · 23/01/2017 23:11

But who decided that being passive gentle and nurturing is feminine?

Who the fuck knows? Patriarchy? Men somewhere probably. That's hardly the point.

tygr · 23/01/2017 23:22

"and doing stereotypically male things

What are they ? That is a serious question ? Why do you see things you like doing as "stereotypically male" as opposed to just being things you like ?"

I think that question is to me?

I was trying to describe what non-binary is to someone who said something like why doesn't someone wearing men's clothes just identify as a man. I was trying to put the point across that someone can express masculine and feminine traits (whether that's through biology or behaviour) and call themselves non-binary. I don't identify as non-binary or trans. I'm female.

I don't define what stereotypes are. Societies/cultures do that and they change over time. I'm not an academic in this area and I'm sure someone can express it far better than I can.

My point was to say that I can wear men's clothes and play football and have short hair and that still makes me a woman. Some people would call these things stereotypically male. Some people would call themselves non-binary and exhibit the exact same behaviour that I still think is comfortably female.

not sure why I need to justify this

mxjackmonroe · 24/01/2017 01:24

Hey. Someone tagged me in this, so I got am email. I didn't come looking for it.

My son is completely secure and absolutely fine. I take him to school, bring him home, snuggle on the couch, draw pictures, read books, go to the park, the cinema, we tickle each other on the floor til we can't cope any more, he leaves me messages on the fridge in letter magnets and I leave him notes under his pillow. I've been single for 2 years, no overnight visitors, same stable group of RL friends, and most of the online shit probably goes over his head. I have enough perspective to realise 0.001% of the population follow me on social media, and enough sense to have one of the best lawyers in the country keeping me out of the news (apologies to be at odds with your 'attention seeking' label but I'm really happiest at the oven or with a book...)

I can take the criticism on the chin. It's been a batshit few years and I escaped a couple of very abusive relationships (nobody well known) and into a messy period of trying to scrub myself clean, really. It's a bit shit doing that publicly, but nobody really deserves to be told to die for forgetting a comma on a tweet.

I started the AMA because lets be honest there was a spate of threads that kept being deleted and I wanted to offer a safe space (lol I know) to answer questions as people clearly had them to ask. That's all. I might be a right-on insufferable twat sometimes but I do just try to be a decent human being. Sometimes that's a decent human being with lipstick (yes, that's new, and occasional, but I'm enjoying it and Mrs Gloss is a nice community - kind of wish I'd had them 15 years ago!)

Have a good night and thanks for your concern. Flowers

tygr · 24/01/2017 01:44

Can't possibly agree with you on the lipstick - disgusting stuff imho Wink

Don't let the bastards grind you down Flowers

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 24/01/2017 02:09

Nothing wrong with lipstick. Far from it. And it suits you.

Don't think there's a woman out there who's happy in her body, doesn't mean it's not hers

The above is a comment on Jack's twitter feed, not a comment by Jack. I can't fathom how anyone can think that no woman can be happy in her body.