Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

I make a value judgement of their words and actions

Yeah, but since you don't count raping prostitutes as overtly sexist, I'd say your value judgements are, at best, blinkered.

qwerty what about prostitution, porn, abortion rights? Plus in the UK we may have equality under the law, but there are clearly still issues to address given that there are still big gender imbalances in many areas of power e.g. MPs, judges, CEOs etc, as well as gender imbalances in other areas too.

mrsdusty

I'm sorry, raping prostitutes? You think every time a prostitute has sex with a client is rape?

I don't feel any need to pass your decent human test, so there aren't any male tears being shed if you think I'm not "decent"

Not sure what your point is with that comment. We all, I assume, have yardsticks by which we measure people.

In my case my people who think the sex "industry" is fine don't measure up. Some people don't like Tories or the police.

I also dislike people who have a callous attitude to animal welfare and factory farming.

Leaving men aside, since you seem to have a problem with the sex industry, if a woman watches porn, does that disqualify her from feminism? What about if she participates in porn, or stripping, or prostitution?

I personally think the happy hooker brigade, and the pole dancers who "just love their work" who we see here from time to time, do women generally no good at all and are actively colluding with punters. I think punters are simply scum.

I fully understand there are women who are trafficked or are in circumstances where they have no choice, and I have every sympathy for them. The happy hooker lot who have a choice, far less so. Although I do wonder whether the posts about how much they make , how easy it is etc are actually true.

I'm sorry, raping prostitutes? You think every time a prostitute has sex with a client is rape?

It's a fairly standard viewpoint. I can't imagine anyone less like a radical feminist than my husband and it's a view he has expressed.

Speak I think you're wasting your time, qwerty has already decided feminism is a polarising middle class cult designed to put men and women off having anything to do with it. Somewhat disingenuous to start with a question really.

I know what you mean, Charlie, but it was more for anyone else who might be more inclined to listen.

I'd probably watch it occasionally whether she liked it [porn] or not. It's none of my business if she wants to use a vibrator when I'm not around

Watching porn on your own is not the same as using a vibrator on your own.

Lass

So would you have 'punters' tried and convicted of rape? Or is this 'rape' as an abstract rather than legal concept?

Is a gay male prostitute automatically a rape victim?
What about a heterosexual male prostitute/gigolo?

Given that 2nd wave feminists fought the "sex war" amongst themselves over issues like prostitution, I very much doubt it is the "standard" viewpoint even for feminists.

Personally I think it's utterly ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous. Unsurprised you think that though.

So would you have 'punters' tried and convicted of rape? Or is this 'rape' as an abstract rather than legal concept

I support having the punters criminalised certainly. Convicted of sex offending.

The point that Lass is making (and making very well), is that it is a commonly held viewpoint that consent to sex can't be bought. The fact of it being made a financial transaction negates the freedom of choice that true consent needs, because it introduces an element of coercion and an unequal power dynamic.

And what's great about it being Lass and Lass's husband making that point is that you can't just dismiss it and go "feminism, pfffffffft, bollocks". Because they're not feminists.

Ok I concede prostitution and porn - but even then fems seem pretty muddled about those things, with some saying they count as empowering choices for women. And more women are watching porn all the time. Moreover you've just identified areas in which women are more expoited - that doesn't mean they're more exploited overall. Is working in an Amazon warehouse more degrading than doing webcam porn?At least with the latter you work from home - and the money's better.What's worse: sex slavery or being down a diamond mine? It's all a matter of perspective. As for CEO's etc that's wrong but you need to recognise it's a world the vast majority of men feel as excluded from as you.

Does anyone think users of porn should be criminalized? Women and all? Because they are the clientele in a system of filmed prostitution.Morally there's no difference.

charlie

They are already criminalised for soliciting prostitution.

Calling prostitution rape is effectively stating that prostitutes are completely incapable of informed consent. That is absolutely ridiculous.

"Personally I think it's utterly ridiculous."

I don't think there'll be any female tears shed..........

I think porn should be illegal and possession of porn should be a criminal offence. And yes, it's filmed prostitution.

Another there are a number of things that adults are not legally permitted to consent to so it's not ridiculous at all.

"Totally agree that socialism needs feminism. 100%. There have been some awful examples of the sexism of leftist movements over the years, and the failures to address it are shocking. It's not my politics, as I'm much more centrist, but I can't disagree with a lot of the analysis."

Well I am American and to be completely honest I am still in sort of shock over the election. I am feeling around for some way to make sense of it and begin to see some way to fight back against a situation which is much more dire than I had thought.

Many of the things under fire now are things I considered "banked"....from Roe v Wade....straight on through to school curriculum. Very basic things. Here in the UK (I'm expat), there is possibly a similar turn back...with again attacks on things I thought were now established as baseline.

Regaining ground will be very hard....and those energies could be used for further progress.

AnotherRandom:Depends on the prostitute.A Syrian refugee who has effectively been forced into prostitution cannot be said to have given full elective consent. But the woman who i knew who made a shedload as an independent escort, in addition to a well paid job, has to take ownership for her decision.

the issue of consent in prostitution has been clearly explained random. Consent cannot be bought.

Prostitutes are selling sex, not consent. Their consent is given because the terms of the transaction are those which they feel are acceptable - ie. what they are doing, with whom, and how much for. If those conditions are not met, no consent. As for a power dynamic - that's complicated. In some respects the prostitute has the power as they name the price.

Calling sex for money 'rape' in my view trivialises rape.

BertrandRussell
touche!

Nobody is saying that your Happy Hooker has no agency.

When you pay a prostitute for sex, you're paying her to waive her consent, because if she consented to having sex with you because she wanted to you wouldn't have to pay her.

What we're saying is that a society in which women and girls can be bought for sex is not a society in which women are truly making free choices. It's a culture that values male sexual entitlement more than it values women.

As for a power dynamic - that's complicated. In some respects the prostitute has the power as they name the price

Are you actually serious?

Charlie Explaining it and restating it does not mean you are right. At present, the law says you are wrong, and I firmly disagree.

Qwerty

Yes, I agree that forced prostitution is a different matter. However, you'd be hard pushed to ever make an accusation a man had raped a prostitute who was trafficked stand up in court. I'd support huge sentences for anybody convicted in trafficking women for prostitution, it is absolutely abhorrent.

I too know a woman who has dabbled with escort work to afford the little extras in life, and can't see any way she was "raped'. £300 to go out to dinner and have a quick shag was easy money, it's that simple.

I was waiting for that one, Charlie.

another, take a look at some of the reports on the german mega brothels, where a flat rate of 50E in a fully legal brothel will buy you sex with as many women as you want in an evening, then come back here and tell me with a straight face who has the power there.

I just need "but women in porn get paid more!" and I'll have a full house.

It always comes back to men's dicks, doesn't it? Motivated reasoning at its finest. I'm really finding this quite depressing.