Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

Thank you Beachcomber

When I said "unhelpful" I wasn't defending Qwerty. I found it unhelpful but that is probably just my sloppy analysis too.

However you (general you) might find very large numbers of people will have the same sloppy thinking.

'It's 50/50.'

What an astoundingly stupid thing to say.

Well sloppy thinking is encouraged when it comes to the status quo because sloppy thinking is not threatening.

We aren't encouraged to shine an analytical female centric light on society. There are many reasons and places to hide from feminist analysis and proposals - but I think that men and women hide from them for very different reasons and, it is erroneous to pretend that that is not the case (or ignore it, brush over it, fail to speak of it). Women act from a place of internalized sexism, from fear of reprisal, punishment and violence. Men act from a place of being massively advantaged by the status quo. The motivation is totally different, one is of self-preservation, the other is of selfishness.

Male sloppy thinking also often comes from ego - an actual belief in the seductive myth of male superiority, a sense of righteousness about one's place in the world (indeed indignation that one's male place isn't actually rather better). I think female sloppy thinking is more about it being too painful to look at the awful truth.

I am a man, and no great fan of feminism, but I would be the first to concede we do not live in an equal society. My own analysis does not come from a place of great learning or insight, but it does seem clear that women's views are not heard enough nor taken serisouly enough when they are expressed.

Despite my own misgivings about feminism I think we're in a phase where we need to hear more from women about their experiences. Until we are in a place where male/female voices carry equal weight we can't arrive at a dialog where the solutions present themselves.

What are your misgivings about feminism?

venus "He understands that men need to listen to women about the problems women face, rather than jump in with their opinions. So I think that guy would call himself a feminist ally."

Well put I must say, and the idea is not just applicable for feminism but for many other causes, however, I have a problem with it. Talking about being an ally seems odd - are we at war? You support a movement. You have an ally in war or conflict. Sorry for picking you out on this as multiple people have used the word ally, but I just find it odd.

Rufus, thank you. I think my focus on my DD and not my DS was because of how I knew the perpetrator and the form of the abuse, but it would out me to say more. But yes, I did not see equal risk in the situation whereas given what I now know, I should have.

Is he okay? At the moment, yes, will he continue to be okay, I don't know.

It is good that you saw equal risk for both sexes, people should. That is what I really wanted to say.

It's hard not to feel like you're at war when two members of the group you align yourself with are killed every week by the other group and thousands more are raped and assaulted.

Beachcomber: Women and men are equally socialised by patriarchal culture. Do you disagree?

BertrandRussell at the risk of a minor derail, my political views are sliding towards minarchism/anarchy these days, and feminism in it's current form requires massive expansions of state power.

That all sounds awful CocoaX for both you and your son. I hope it all turns out right in the end. Do you have plenty of support?

Any form of social justice will require state power Anti. I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that minarchist societies tend to be corrupt neoliberal economies that are criminally unequal and crash all the time.

Free markets don't work. They will not liberate women, or anybody.

Sparrowhawk: Ok, that was a bit crass. But my point stands that if you wish to overthrow patriarchy (by which I mean the entire culture by which normative gender identity is constructed and designated) then this will entail women being de-socialized no less than men.

This is a fact.

Are we now talking about the complete deconstruction and rebuilding of society , or about something that might actually happen?

"You think every time a prostitute has sex with a client is rape? Yes I do.
The Happy Hooker is a myth."

Is it? Is there not a single happy hooker in the world? Is there not a single happy pornstar in the world?

"It's hard not to feel like you're at war when two members of the group you align yourself with are killed every week by the other group and thousands more are raped and assaulted."

Point taken. But I think then you have to accept that that very attitude is making feminists look bad. If you act like you are at war, or talk like you are, to people that don't consider that to be true, you will appear very hostile.

Beachcomber: What is the goal of feminism, as you see it?

If could perhaps posit a division between two strands of feminism. One is the activist, campaigning element. This aims to achieve concrete goals concerning the social, legal, economic and political status of women.

The other is more diffuse and concerns how the above oppressions are legitimated by a whole process of gender socialisation. Women are as complicit in that as men - by definition. Men are not more socialized to be masculine any more than women are socialised to be feminine. And unless both the masculine and the feminine are overturned patriarchy will continue to perpetuate itself. Surely?

I have no idea if there is a single truly happy pornstar (as in remaining happy at the end of their performing life) but I do know that outliers do not negate the experience of the majority in the sex industry for whom the work is at best the least worst available and/or result of internalised mysogyny.

There are no doubt happy Indonesian sweat-shop workers Pink.

"Are we now talking about the complete deconstruction and rebuilding of society"

It's happening now, just turning women into the serf class.

But dismantling and changing society has happened before when women were 'liberated' under early Soviet society, 1920s: divorce, suffrage, contraception, child care, communal laundries and kitchens. Barcelona during civil war. Turkey under Ataturk. All many years before similar rights afforded to British women.

"Point taken. But I think then you have to accept that that very attitude is making feminists look bad. If you act like you are at war, or talk like you are, to people that don't consider that to be true, you will appear very hostile"

Two points. One -that's not what ally means. Two- when are we going to get past this "women just be nicer" thing?

I find it bizarre that when feminists say 'I feel like we're at war' then it's assumed that they have a 'bad attitude' but when men murder, rape, rob, maim, commit genocide, start wars, etc etc etc we're constantly reminded how good men are, really, and how it's 'not all men.'

beach

Do you acknowledge you have privilege over a disabled person ? Did you "earn" it ? How do you propose to give it up ? Perhaps it is the case that you will always have an advantage they will not ?

It's almost as if women have to be constantly careful and polite while men can do whatever the fuck they please isn't it?

'you will appear very hostile'

The ANC, civil rights league and the suffragettes did not win against apartheid, racism and disenfranchisement without appearing hostile.

Even Michelle Obama is hostile to a man who rapes children, his ex wife and is now the leader of the 'free world'.

If one middle or upper class man was being killed every 72hours by his female partner, in Britain, I think their response might include the appearance of hostility.

Look at the firebrands of the past who fought and won rights for women: Annie Bessant and Golda Meir, Barbara Castle. They had a repertoire of ammunition including educating, organising, charming, persuading but also feisty confrontation when it was necessary.

Some men have realised what they think they have lost with societal equalisation and a fight back is on. In times of economic and political turmoil women, the poor and whatever the word 'immigrant' means take a hit.

If the rules of discourse were more decorous, if people were basically all a bit more mindful, polite and respectful, for sure the nature of the debate might take a much more civilised and constructive turn. But look at what our female MPs are being threatened with, for doing their job. Did you see what was written about Nichola Sturgeon by a UKIP person? We just have to look at what rampant sexism, is doing in society now, to our teenage girls. They're like the canaries in the mine for how it's turned into a new style sexism.