Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

I'm struck again by what an odd hobby it is to hang round on a feminism board when you're not a feminist. As an atheist I've had the odd peek on religious boards from time to time, just to see what's there, but I was bored in minutes. A bunch of people talking about stuff I'm not interested in because I think it's nonsense, who aren't much interested in my opinion of what they believe. What would be the motivation to stay? I'm guessing it's some or all of: being a contrarian; for devilment; arrogance; collecting stories of how awful/stupid/deluded the genuine posters are to be faux-horrified at; or something else that I haven't thought of?

As an aside, I've moderated another discussion forum for years, so I am entirely cynical about how truthfully people present themselves online, and I'm pretty good at spotting the tells people make in their posting styles. I've had to be - we suffered the most appalling trolling and what went on behind the scenes would make your hair stand on end.

Oh, I forgot to end that with the sign off!

REALNESS

(guffaw)

I was just thinking the exact same thing Pooch

Unless you actively want to discuss something from a feminist perspective why not post in chat, where more people would agree with your non/anti feminist stance. Unless of course the motivation is trolling as you say, contrarian, shits and giggles, arrogance etc.

I'm struck again by what an odd hobby it is to hang round on a feminism board when you're not a feminist.

There are loads of people who feel a burning need to put women in their place and show that all this silly stuff is not appropriate and everything is fine. Also, if women would just shut up, that would be really lovely.

I'm struck again by what an odd hobby it is to hang round on a feminism board when you're not a feminist. As an atheist I've had the odd peek on religious boards from time to time, just to see what's there, but I was bored in minutes

I don't think that is a particularly useful analogy. I see this part of MN as a more serious look at political and social issues from the perspective of being female.

And any way what does "feminist" mean?
Or what type of feminism ?

I'm not picking on Sparrowhawk but she did say early on in this thread that all forms of feminism other than radical feminism were a waste of time/ pointless (I'm paraphrasing).

And others have said often enough on FWR that liberal feminists are so at odds with "real" feminisim that they don't consider liberal feminists to be feminists.

Ok point taken. The only people suggesting posters should get off the board, or are weird, or who try to limit who can be involved in their oh so altruistic struggle to make the world better are the regular feminists as far as I can see. I don't see anyone on this thread who has been "putting women in their place" or whatever other things were suggested.

Rufus

I thought feminism was getting the sexes to be equal

Well, OK then - but how would you feel if a group of men said that they wanted the same, and in order to facilitate it were going to setup a group that only men could join and if any women were to speak up about how to achieve sexual equality - well she has no right and etc.

And others have said often enough on FWR that liberal feminists are so at odds with "real" feminisim that they don't consider liberal feminists to be feminists

It would be my opinion that some typical liberal feminist viewpoints are incompatible with my understanding of feminism. Eg. 'sex work' or ' a woman is anyone who feels like one'. That's all we do here isn't it, express our own opinions?

Indeed. Charlie but earlier you posted Unless you actively want to discuss something from a feminist perspective why not post in chat

There is generally a more serious discussion of issues here than in Chat and as it is less busy threads last longer.

I do wonder what you get out of it, Lass. We exasperate you so much of the time. But this is interesting: 'I see this part of MN as a more serious look at political and social issues from the perspective of being female' - that makes a bit more sense to me.

or who try to limit who can be involved in their oh so altruistic struggle to make the world better

Careful, girl, your mask is slipping! Where did I say anyone should leave, you disingenuous little poppet, you?

I am a male socialist. I believe that as long as our system exists in its present form it will be difficult for progress to occur. As Meglimar Melero says, "...without feminism, socialism can’t exist, and without socialism, true feminism cannot exist."

In classic Marxist theory, gender issues dissolve once classes are removed, but I feel that reform cannot happen within the current patriarchal/capitalistic system.

I do not think that feminism needs men telling them what to do, but that socialism needs feminism.

Do you know what. I'll lurk and post on this board if I like. It's part of MN and I've as much right to discuss feminist issues as any other woman. This exclusivity gets me down and pisses lots of people off.

Lass I think there is a real difference between someone who comes to FWR with a real interest in the issues and genuinely wants to engage, and someone who has no interest, no understanding and just wants to derail.

"Do you know what. I'll lurk and post on this board if I like. It's part of MN and I've as much right to discuss feminist issues as any other woman. This exclusivity gets me down and pisses lots of people off"

Did anyone say you couldn't?

It might be interesting if you occasionally posted something a bit more substantive than "you're all awful and I can see why everyone hates you" though!

makeour, I vividly remember the debates back in my women's studies group in the 90s about whether it was even possible to be a feminist without being a marxist, and vice versa

Totally agree that socialism needs feminism. 100%. There have been some awful examples of the sexism of leftist movements over the years, and the failures to address it are shocking. It's not my politics, as I'm much more centrist, but I can't disagree with a lot of the analysis.

I think you should ban men from this board.

"Well, OK then - but how would you feel if a group of men said that they wanted the same, and in order to facilitate it were going to setup a group that only men could join and if any women were to speak up about how to achieve sexual equality - well she has no right and etc."

Is this still about the label "feminist"? Because I think that's the only think anyone has said men can't do-use the label.

In classic Marxist theory, gender issues dissolve once classes are removed, but I feel that reform cannot happen within the current patriarchal/capitalistic system

I do not think that feminism needs men telling them what to do, but that socialism needs feminism

These are very interesting points.

Now I'm not a Marxist or a Socialist. You say that socialism needs feminism - I take it you agree with what you quoted ? without socialism, true feminism cannot exist

Feminism needs Socialism?

It might be interesting if you occasionally posted something a bit more substantive than "you're all awful and I can see why everyone hates you" though!

Bertrand If that comment was directed at Derxa then it is really unfair and a very inaccurate summary of Derxa's posts.

And if it were directed at me, the same.

It might be interesting if you occasionally posted something a bit more substantive than "you're all awful and I can see why everyone hates you" though! I can post anything I like under the MN guidelines. I don't hate anyone. I came on here trying to find out more about radical feminism and was told to Google it.

It was directed at derxa. And seems fair to me. I'll check and see if I need to apologise.

I came on here trying to find out more about radical feminism and was told to Google it.

What's wrong with that? Do you think anyone has the responsibility to educate you? You'll notice there's no begging anyone to post here. If you had been sought and begged for your input, maybe it would be up to someone else to take you through it. Absent that, you decided to post here, it's up to you to find the basics out for yourself.

I don't think that is a particularly useful analogy. I see this part of MN as a more serious look at political and social issues from the perspective of being female.
I think that's absolutely reasonable and it's also clear you agree with lots of the outcomes feminists are working towards.

I don't understand why men come in to be goady, tell us we are wrong to be feminist or their feelings are hurt. That is weird. And a bit creepy.

I'm not going to go away. I'm not your enemy. I'm your friend.

lass & bertrand

"Not going to but still fine with strip clubs and prostitution doesn't quite pass my decent standards of human behaviour test"

Don't you mean human moral test? I don't go to them, so my behaviour is, I don't go to them. The idea of paying a woman to pretend to find me attractive is just not appealing, in the same way paying somebody to hang out with me and pretend to be my best mate is not appealing.

I don't feel any need to pass your decent human test, so there aren't any male tears being shed if you think I'm not "decent"

Bertrand stated that I "skirted over" pornography - OK if you want to know, yes I have watched porn. So has my partner. She knows I have and I know she has, neither of us have a problem with that and I see no reason to lie about it. I'd probably watch it occasionally whether she liked it or not. It's none of my business if she wants to use a vibrator when I'm not around.

Leaving men aside, since you seem to have a problem with the sex industry, if a woman watches porn, does that disqualify her from feminism? What about if she participates in porn, or stripping, or prostitution?

I accept that some people oppose the sex industry and that they have various reasons for doing so. I'll listen to their arguments on it, but none of them have convinced me & I'm not taking on any shame or guilt for disagreeing.

MrsDusty

"How do you determine what is overtly sexist"

I make a value judgement of their words and actions. How do you do it?

My Partner is a semi-pro boxer who does most of her training with male boxers (there aren't many women who box). I've heard all sorts of shitty sexist opinions about that, not all from men either.

Read the past thirty pages with great interest, though I am left uncertain as to the meaning and purpose of modern Western feminism. Obvious question, but what power and privilege do men have that women don't? Feminists seem to focus on two issues: sexual violence and the pay gap. Regarding the former they are inarguably right. A man has the privilege of going for a solitary walk without the fear of being raped (though he is more likely to be physically attacked or killed.) As for men being paid more, this issue seems fairly limited to men on negotiated salaries in the managerial class. The vast majority of men doing crappy jobs for crappy wages (the ones more likely than women to become homeless or unemployed) are not feeling economically empowered. Sorry but while feminists have valid points and do worthy things much online fem debate suggests a narrow minded, polarizing middle class cult that is designed to turn men and women off from having anything to do with it.