Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

How about a human rights issue but no feminist one?

" It is impossible to be a feminist and support the mainstream porn industry." - that is your opinion of both porn and what feminism is.

So we are back to where I wrote something like "but of course your opinion on porn and feminism is the correct one".

No, isn't that how communism works in reality?

Yes, agree with you Pooch. As far as liberal feminism goes that's a victory. And those women are probably choosing to wear burkas and stay indoors and look after the men, it's a cultural tradition and we have to respect it. It's totally empowering in a different way. And being a feminist is all about choice. That's the only important thing about it. That women technically have a choice. Sort of.

It is a human rights issue because people are being trafficked and exploited and hurt.

It is a feminist issue because it is about how men and women view each other and how women are viewed by society and how politics and social policy affect women and about sex and relationships and self esteem..........

Another

In each case, some holders of the more radical viewpoint will attack the holders of the less radical viewpoint with the "no true scotsman" fallacy (ie state you can't be a true feminist if you don't agree with them).

This works both ways though eg liberal feminists attacking (sometimes literally) radical feminists for their views.

Yes Hilbert. It's how it worked out in reality. And it didn't work out so well in the end as an ideology, did it?

What do we think about women only spaces and how important they are or should be to feminism and women generally?

I really notice a difference in energy and interaction when a space or a group is female only rather than mixed. It's something I really enjoy. It's not possible for a man to ever experience a female only space, so that aspect of female identity, and feminism will forever be closed to him? In the same way that I have no idea what male only spaces feel like (despite working in many all-male environments, I assume my presence changes things subtly), men have no idea what female only space feels like. I think that must affect how you view the world.

I go on holiday with a group of female friends, and my husband and I also go on holiday with the same female friends, plus their partners and a larger mixed group. There's a completely different vibe between the mixed and female only. It's interesting. They both have their attractions, but they're different beasts. Likewise the women only gym I used to belong to. I really loved that gym! No-one hitting on you or trying to intimidate you in the free weights area.

There are feminists who argue for ethical, feminist porn, and some who make it. It is impossible to be a feminist and support the mainstream porn industry.

So they are feminists then, even though they make porn ?

I think a summation of Berts argument style is as follows :

Bertrand: People who believe X cannot be Y

Poster A : Many people who believe X is OK say they are Y

Bertrand : do you believe in X ?

What has this question got to do with the point of the thread which is to discuss who can and cannot call themselves feminists ?

zsazsa

refuse to concede when faced with evidence that actually your claims are erroneous.

You provide evidence of a single women, who does not claim to be a feminist, who wants to see more women in the scaffolding industry. Note that the women in question is actually not "on the tools", but in management. How is this proof that my claim that feminists are not really interested in promoting numerical equality in fields that do not produce shiny gadgets, is false ?

"So they are feminists then, even though they make porn?"

Did you notice the words"ethical"
and "mainstream"?

Well capitalism isn't looking perfect at the moment either and soviet communism certainly isn't the only example of socialism.

"The afghani example above also illustrates the limitations of seeing feminism as a fight for "equality". Formally, the constitution (of 2003? 2004? I can't remember) enshrined the equality of men and women in Afghanistan - men and women are equal before the law. Hurray!"

It is said that in Iraq women's rights have deteriorate post invasion as well.

The point I was making was not about the relative merits of capitalism and communism, but about communists eschewing personal property and wealth as an ideology but living in a mansion having gold plated toilets. It's an analogy. Anyone can call themselves a communist, and if they have power then the original meaning of the word communism is likely to be abused and widened to suit their personal interests. And anyone can call themselves a feminist. Whether or not they are actively interested in challenging the structural oppression of women as a class.

Bertrand I take more than 50% responsibility for house especially since we got a cleaner, which was incidentally DW's part of the house work. / childcare, kids are adults , I actively refuse to use sexist language/jokes, and call out men when they use them, do not go to lap dancing and strip clubs and do not never have apart from a few times with DW used porn.

I support equal rights for all. I don't care about labels.

That's good. You do realise that porn isn't less problematic because a woman watches it with you?

not "on the tools" now is it?
hmmm...
goalposts shifting yet again
and the "shiny gadgets" refrain is just patronising (as I'm sure it's intended to be).
The onus is on you to prove your claim, not on me to continue to attempt to disprove it.
Perhaps devise a survey or questionnaire?
Gather some actual data?
CBA I'm guessing.

I'm a feminist.
I'm interested in improving gender equality in all fields.
But of course I simply must be an exception, and not one which proves the rule.

I did note your "numerical equality" caveat though.
Obviously, unless and until there is literally a 50:50 gender balance in all fields, any feminists claiming to be interested in gender balance must continue to strive for this nirvana, else their claims that they ARE actually interested simply must be false, no?

Hey pooch

Would agree with your last post

It can be an interesting dynamic

if you genuinely think porn does not exploit women

Bert

Did you notice the words"ethical" and "mainstream"?

No - because you didn't type them in any of your other pronouncements on the topic.

Is this a qualification ?

"The point I was making was not about the relative merits of capitalism and communism, but about communists eschewing personal property and wealth as an ideology but living in a mansion having gold plated toilets. It's an analogy."

Noted. Slow on the uptake today.

zsazsa

goalposts shifting yet again

Not really, a manager in a scaffolding firm is not the same as an actual scaffolder. However I am pleased to hear that you are working towards getting rid of gender imbalances across all industries and not just STEM.

No worries, make

There is a certain amount of porn that just shows two adults shagging - nothing much wrong with that.

But a significant and popular segment of the porn industry depicts women and underage girls being hurt, raped and humiliated. Even porn that is considered fairly standard and normal often depicts sex that women are physically built to enjoy - extremely rough, no foreplay, etc. And a significant number of men get off on that.

I can't see any reason to defend that.

Personally, I like to think of my feminism as women's liberation.

I've read some interesting stuff on the rise of third wave or liberal feminism in the 90s (well, I lived through it too ) and what impact the loss of the sense of women's liberation in favour of an equality-based approach had on what feminism was achieving. The nineties was a period of backlash against the gains made in the 60s/70s/80s, so I don't think its coincidence that what I find to be an anodyne interpretation of feminism (post modern, choice, empowerment, "sex positive" etc) rose at the time of backlash. The drive to include men in feminism dates back to this time, too, and I wonder how much of a coincidence it is that these things happened together...

include men in feminism>make it about equality>feminism becomes "pro porn"> class analysis sidelined in favour of individualistic "choice" rhetoric.

I don't know which of those chickens and eggs came first, but it's interesting to wonder...

"There is a certain amount of porn that just shows two adults shagging - nothing much wrong with that."

Well, so long as neither party is being coerced or has been trafficked or is being paid significantly less than the other party...........And it's pretty hard to tell.

sorry that should say that women aren't physically built to enjoy

'Well, so long as neither party is being coerced or has been trafficked or is being paid significantly less than the other party...........And it's pretty hard to tell.'

Oh yes definitely - that relates back to what you were saying about ethical porn. I think the idea of ethical porn is fairy tale but I can see why some feminists might be in favour of it.