Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

Oh Bertrand watch out!
Someone'll be along in a minute to make sure you're well aware that female pornstars are paid substantially more than their male counterparts.
(Not that you actually claimed that the porn pay gap financially disadvantages women)

pooch
spot on and thank you for refreshing the thread!

**Venus

I only know what a TERF is because I've read about it on blogs written by women who identify as feminists who support transgender rights, and now I've just looked it up, I have learned that the term was coined by an Australian liberal feminist blogger.

Your identification of the term as 'anti-feminist' therefore appears to be a perfect illustration of my observation about the "no true scotsman" fallacy?

As for accusations of misandry...

^^"I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them"

-Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

^^"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males"

• Mary Daly, radical feminist academic

That some prominent feminists are misandrists appears to be a fact confirmed by their own statements to me.

And another post from pooch that i completely agree with

Lets just assume that everything that pooch says from now on i agree with

Saves me typing it all...again....and again.....and again

another

I dont get the daly one....

Appreciate that its all in how we read these things but i cant see that she is saying that it should happen...just that she believes it will

I understand the first one dont necessarily agree with the out of context understanding of it but can see how it appears

zsazsagaboredom

I know some liberal feminists attack some radical feminist views - but in my limited exposure to feminist discourse, I dont think I have ever seen a liberal feminist use the "you aren't a true feminist if you think that" line to dismiss a radical feminist view - does it happen?

Rufus

I really have to be in the mood to debate the ethics of porn and feminism. And I'm not, today. I'm right up for a discussion of the place of men in feminism though, and I keep on hoping the thread might get back there..!

Not really. It's a term which singles out radical feminists for opprobrium because they don't accept transwomen are in every way the same as biological women, therefore it is by definition, anti-feminist. Whether or not liberal feminists think it's a reasonable or fair way to label gender critical feminists. It's actually a hugely loaded misogynistic slur mainly used to insult, dismiss and intimidate women, and any feminist woman who slings it around isn't exactly a great credit to the feminist movement.

But of course, as a man with important manly views about feminism, you are quite happy to wade in with your largely uninformed opinions again.

another, it happens all the time.

Liberal feminists using the term "TERF" is a prime example. They believe that no true feminist could wish for female only spaces to exclude trans women.

Another example would be that feminists who believe that prostitution is harmful are "sex worker exclusionary" in liberal feminist terminology and therefore not "real feminists".

There are many types of feminism. I don't think a quest for ideological purity is helpful, and it's particularly not helpful to sit outside a movement and demand it of others.

I'm right up for a discussion of the place of men in feminism though, and I keep on hoping the thread might get back there..!

Hahahahahahahaa

And a fantastic sense of humour as well!!!

And a shining example of optimism

Fantastc!! So multi talented

Hey, now, that's out of line, rufus. Any fule no that feminists have NO sense of humour. Are you saying I'm not a true feminist?!?!11??

pooch

Oh yes good point

I was on a thread the other day and starting take the mick out of myself, joking with another poster and being 'flippant'

Fuck me did i get slammed for it

I got myself in such a tizz i had to leave the thread

so embarrassing, as bertrand says " its just words on a screen"

I know some liberal feminists attack some radical feminist views - but in my limited exposure to feminist discourse, I dont think I have ever seen a liberal feminist use the "you aren't a true feminist if you think that" line to dismiss a radical feminist view - does it happen?

The whole point of the coinage and usage of TERF and SWERF is to discredit respectively , feminists who do not consider trans women are women , and feminists who do not consider the "sex industry" is just an industry as any other, as not being true feminists.

The SWERF attack is interesting for me personally as it is usually seeks to discredit "SWERFS" by lumping them in with right wing groups, and hard line , extremist religious groups who also oppose the normalisation of the "sex industry" albeit for different reasons.

I am a liberal atheist and have no difficulty in opposing any attempt to normalise the "sex industry".

On the subject of porn and the damage to women this is an interesting article: Pornography and Crime

From it: “I had been doing this work for more than 10 years before I realized that I had not treated one case of sexual violence that did not include pornography."

Regardless of anything else, porn rarely shows loving, kind, gentle sex and so it doesn't promote healthy sexuality for anybody.

The thing that strikes me about porn (and I suppose I should acknowledge that beyond accidentally stumbling across a porn channel in a hotel once and my phone being high jacked due to MN's lax Internet security I have no experience of using it) is that it relies on sex being dirty; the language used in the awful pop up hijacks is always a variant of "filthy sluts" - basically sex is dirty, sordid and filthy. That to me seems to be the very antithesis of being pro-sex.

The blogger in this makes the same point about having to buy sex (it's right at the end of her talk)

Porns not that great for men either. There's increasing worries about men's sexual health being affected by porn.

"But of course, as a man with important manly views about feminism, you are quite happy to wade in with your largely uninformed opinions again"

Sigh... did that little ad-hominem make you feel good?

"Regardless of anything else, porn rarely shows loving, kind, gentle sex and so it doesn't promote healthy sexuality for anybody."

And why is "loving, kind, gentle sex" the only good sex, or the "right" sex?

Mind you, teenage boys re-enacting what they see in porn is a major problem as far as I am concerned, but your statement is based on a rather significant assumption.

pooch / lass

Thanks for the explanation. So, TERF was coined by liberal feminists as intentionally insulting, rather than to differentiate two opposing feminist viewpoints? I suppose you could argue that if they had chosen to embrace themselves as "Trans Inclusive Feminists" rather than labelling others it would be more polite.

I don't know who first came up with TERF and it would very unfair to say it was liberal feminists or to assume that its use is an accepted thing by anyone other than some people some of whom call themselves feminists and some transactivists.

"But of course, as a man with important manly views about feminism, you are quite happy to wade in with your largely uninformed opinions again"

Sigh... did that little ad-hominem make you feel good?

For what it's worth I don't think the first comment above added anything constructive. It seems a little perverse if the aim is to achieve a radical reconstruction of men and women's societal role to be quite so intent on discouraging discussion with men. The first part of Venus reply to you was informative and objective.

No, it didn't add anything constructive. I'm just tired of men popping up constantly to tell women how they should be doing feminism. That is one of the many reasons, this tendency to do this rather than accept they might not fully understand the issues due to unconscious male privilege or lack of lived experience as a woman, that makes me raise an eyebrow at those men who want to be called feminists rather than feminist allies.

To be fair Venus any chap(s) popping up constantly to tell women how they should be doing feminism is(are) probably just having a bit of fun.

It's absolutely hilarious to those of us who visit this board to discuss feminism. Nothing I love more than reading pages upon pages of opinions, sniping and ignorance. It's amazingly funny

Well not always. Many of them, yes. But some of them are quite earnestly sure that they can do it better.