Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

"you probably", even for you that's a pathetic argument. Much less taking into consideration above I wrote just that "it seems as if it's a standard line you bring because you are so used to men arguing for porn and also for prostitution at the same time that for you it's an automatic thing to bring up when talking about porn."

What a joke.

"Intervention and aid could have been made contingent on reducing violations of women's human rights. Womens groups could have been supported."

Well yes exactly.

I think that these sorts of ideas could also be applied during trade negotiations. Environmental requirements are sometimes insisted upon, quality issues are certainly in there....product safety....why not have human rights requirements?

Hang on a minute- you just said you think porn doesn't exploit women.
So aren't you in favour of it then?

Do you think you have benefited from male privilege, Hilbert?

Hilbert if you genuinely think porn does not exploit women then there really is no point discussing the point with you. You are just wrong. Even most porn users admit that there is exploitation of women in the porn industry. They either just don't care or they think that their particular porn of choice is OK. As somebody once said on here "you can tell by their faces whether they are enjoying it"

Individual feminists take diametrically opposed standpoints to each other on many things - equal parenting rights in divorce and presumption of 50/50 custody has been vociferously opposed by some feminists and supported by others. Some are pro-pornography. Some feminists are strong supporters of transsexual rights, others are TERFs.

In each case, some holders of the more radical viewpoint will attack the holders of the less radical viewpoint with the "no true scotsman" fallacy (ie state you can't be a true feminist if you don't agree with them).

Rather than argue that I am a feminist because I believe in equality of opportunity in all walks of life, and then be hit with the 'no true scotsman' fallacy myself if I say that I don't think the gender wage gap is a real issue, but perhaps the way society conditions girls to shy away from high income roles and positions of authority is... I just find it preferable to say, no, I'm not a feminist. I think some feminists are also misandrists and quite counterproductive to achieving equality.

I agree, makeour. It could be a bargaining chip in a good way, instead of an easy trade-off for more "important" considerations.

Hilbert, you are on a UK site, and in British English the word "retarded" is thought of as very derogatory and is not used. I'm hoping you are able to take that on board, at least, despite your doubling down on everything else.

Well said PoochSmooch. There are numerous examples of the same sort of thing throughout history. Women were promised that they if they supported the abolition of slavery the abolitionists would then support women's suffrage. Of course, that didn't happen. Women were then promised that if they waited until after world war 1 they would get suffrage then. Again the UK government was about to renege - it was only due to women demonstrating, going on hunger strike and giving the very strong message that they weren't going to be fobbed off again that finally pushed limited suffrage for women through.

Same goes for equal pay, changes in legislation around custody of children etc etc, at no point have men seen the inequality and rectified it, it has always involved women campaigning, striking, demanding before they're listened to.

No worries, anotherrandommale. Surprising though it may seem, I think feminism can do without your input, so not at all concerned that you don't see yourself as a feminist.

I see the thread derailment has progressed to ableist language now. Lovely.

"Do you think you have benefited from male privilege, Hilbert?" - yes, although being white and from a wealthier background was much more decisive.

Bertrand - look up the definition of exploitation and reason me why porn exploits women. Thanks. As I said I know women who like porn and are feminists and a quick google shows that there are more of those. So instead of you always expecting of me, why don't you for once actually answer me? Would you still be as hostile if I were a woman arguing the exact same way?

Pooch - while I think the alt-right is a lousy idea, the one thing I agree with them on (to a point) is that there is far too much PC going on. Also, do you make no difference between calling a person something and calling a general idea not expressed by anyone you are talking to that something? But at any rate, I can refrain from using that language.

Then given that you accept your privileged position, perhaps you should pipe down and listen to women a bit more rather than talking over them about the issues which concern them? Why is it so very important for you to tell women how to do feminism?

"No worries, anotherrandommale. Surprising though it may seem, I think feminism can do without your input, so not at all concerned that you don't see yourself as a feminist." yet another example where a male expressed an opinion and was completely ignored other than being belittled. And I thought men were the ones doing that to women? Hypocrisy thy name is...

The afghani example above also illustrates the limitations of seeing feminism as a fight for "equality". Formally, the constitution (of 2003? 2004? I can't remember) enshrined the equality of men and women in Afghanistan - men and women are equal before the law. Hurray!

But that's no good to you if you can't leave the house without your father's permission, or if your political opponents accuse you of adultery and you get carted off for a virginity test because the constitution also allows that religious law is top trumps.

"Then given that you accept your privileged position, perhaps you should pipe down and listen to women a bit more rather than talking over them about the issues which concern them? Why is it so very important for you to tell women how to do feminism?"

I have never told you how to do feminism. As I have said in another post, disagreeing with a woman on an issue does not mean I am telling you how to do feminism. Nor does it mean I am talking over you, that would be you to anotherrandommale and multiple other women on here before you. Oh wait, I already wrote hypocrisy thy name is...before. Oops.

A slightly goady opinion. With the lovely addition of the anti-feminist slur TERF, and accusations of "misandry" and committing heinous logical fallacies.

But of course you didn't see that. How totally surprising.

"Would you still be as hostile if I were a woman arguing the exact same way?

Yes. I do not know a single feminist who is happy with the porn industry.

The women disagreeing don't actually identify as feminists. For their own good reasons. But they're fairly hostile to some feminist theory and arguments.

Oh please do write "hypocrisy thy name is" again. It's such great wit.

"Yes. I do not know a single feminist who is happy with the porn industry." - but there are plenty. Maybe you just stick to what you like. That is certainly a very large aspect on here.

And interestingly, one of the strongest and most eloquent anti porn mumsnetters does not identify as a feminist. It is a human rights issue as well as a feminist one.

But hey, if it means men can get their rocks off........

What can I say, I love Dr. Cox.

"Yes. I do not know a single feminist who is happy with the porn industry." - but there are plenty."

No there aren't. There are feminists who argue for ethical, feminist porn, and some who make it. It is impossible to be a feminist and support the mainstream porn industry.

If someone calls themselves a communist, yet lives in a massive house with a swimming pool, educates their children privately and has a gold plated toilet, do you see any issue?