Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

Dr M: "This is a made up argument/discussion. The definition of a feminist is someone who supports feminism. The definition of feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. Men can support these ideals. We may not "get it" in some eyes, or our support may be influenced by the prism of our sex, but we can still support equality for all."

Sparrowhawk: "See, along comes a man with great comedy timing to tell us we're wrong!"

Sparrowhawk: "DrMorbius, assuming you're white, would you also go on a forum for black people discussing a race issue and tell them their argument was 'made up'. Or do you reserve your arrogance for women?"

Sparrowhawk: "According to DrMorbius they can, and we must all defer to his Rational Rightness because he is a Man."

Sparrowhawk: "You made no point except to try to criticise me Hilbert. I meant you should try to make a point about the topic of the thread instead of wagging fingers and trying to tell people off."

Insults a male because he disagrees without acknowledging his point. Derails the thread. Still goes on to accuse others of those two very things.

Well done.

I didn't get your point, either, Hilbert. Do you think men can be feminists, if so, why? If not, why not? Maybe you could pull back the derailing if you were willing to engage? I can't see where you put your own opinion, I can only see where you tell other people that theirs is sloppy or that feminism is really only required in developing countries, then you start having a weird sort of Socratic guessworking pop at sparrowhawk and after that the thread went quite weird.

Some of the other posts around that weird derail made for interesting reading though. I think we're still very short on real world examples of men who are so onside with feminism that we could argue if they could be called feminist or not, which is both disappointing and interesting.

Thanks very much Hilbert, it gives me great pleasure to annoy people like you.

My point was quite clear, saying "men can't get it so they can't be feminists" is sloppy argumentation. To make that point I need not state my opinion. Which incidentally is exactly that of Dr M.

The point about the ME was in response to Sparrowhawk going on a rampage about those things that we need feminism for, although it has now been clarified she meant they were overcome here because of feminism. I specifically replied to that comment of hers because it's a line I have read multiple times from people, where they claim there is no need for feminism in the West anymore, and real feminists should do something for women where it's needed and Sparrowhawk's comment would fit perfectly into that particular dismissal of feminism.

Yes I did, but only because she can't or doesn't want to see why using the logic "because you couldn't understand" is pretty poor argumentation. I had nothing to do with how the thread then got weird.

You mean you relish being a hypocrite and insulting to others? Good to know.

Pooch

I thought the discussion was about whether technically men could ever be feminists, not the oft discussed fact that the vast majority of men have no interest in it. My thinking still is that they technically could be, since I believe feminism to be a political and philosophical position you either agree with or you don't. The idea that you need to have a certain experience to believe something doesn't work for me. The idea that having a certain experience always leads you to believe something also doesn't work. Also the idea that if you interpret your experience a certain way, then you can say you hold certain beliefs also seems odd to me.

So although I sympathise with the view that people don't want men to call themselves feminists as women should be at the head of the movement, I'm not sure about saying they definitely cannot be.

The analogy with black activists is slightly different I think because black people actually did/do just want equality, whereas feminism is about recognising and catering to women's specific needs, which are not always the same as mens.

I've read your post three or four times, hilbert and I still don't get it.

It is perfectly legitimate for a feminist to say that only women can truly be feminists because it requires both a level of lived experience, and a requirement to critically examine prejudice that is impossible for a man to achieve.

Personally, that's not MY position, because I feel that some men, exceptional men, thoughtful men, could by dint of true engagement with feminism and critical reflection of themselves, become what I would call a feminist. Other feminists believe that they could only ever be feminist allies, and while I don't agree with that, it's a perfectly legitimate statement to make, and I respect their beliefs. Hell, I'd go as far as to say they're probably right, and I'm mistaken or being too optimistic.

What's not OK is to call the debate illegitimate or sloppy, or a rampage, whatever other dismissive words you're going to chuck at it.

As long as men do actions that would be considered feminist, do they need labels?

Actions speak louder than labels. There are people on MN who say they don't like being called feminists but I bet they take feminist actions.

What's not OK is to call the debate illegitimate or sloppy, or a rampage, whatever other dismissive words you're going to chuck at it.

I won't bother engaging with your argument, because you think it's fine to have a go at me for calling an argument sloppy, but Sparrowhawk get's to be an arsehole to Dr M and no one calls her up on it.

Just look at her childish posts :) I must admit that makes me laugh that she has nothing left to resort to other than childishness.

girl, we've cross posted, I think we're not too far apart in our opinion.

But to pick up a point of your post, while I think men could be feminists, I draw the line at their occupying positions of power or influence in feminist organisations. The role for men in feminism can only ever be supportive, not directive. Feminist movements must be led by women.

It is perfectly legitimate for a feminist to say that only women can truly be feminists because it requires both a level of lived experience, and a requirement to critically examine prejudice that is impossible for a man to achieve

It is perfectly legitimate to say that as an opinion but it is only an opinion. Sparrowhawk's response to Dr M was to dismiss out of hand anything he had to say simply because he was a man.

Personally I think the "lived experience" argument is extremely weak.

Lass do you think men can be feminists?

feminist
ˈfɛmənɪst/Submit
noun
1.
a person who supports feminism.

feminism
ˈfɛmɪnɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

Feminist = a person supporting the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

As Dr M has mentioned, unless you state your own definition of what a feminist is and why men cannot fulfill that definition, then yes, men can be feminists. Do note that this definition actually works well with what PoochSmooch has said, that men can be feminists but just supporters, not (necessarily) leaders of feminism.

From where I'm sitting, the dismissal of DrM was because he prefaced his post with "This is a made up argument/discussion", which is a bloody rude way to weigh into a debate that people are already having, no matter the topic.

OK. I've changed my mind. Call yourselves feminists. You've won me over with your silver tongued oratory.

What are you going to do now?

It's really really odd that all the people who are arguing that men can be feminists aren't feminists themselves. Why is that?

Aren't most arguments made up?

To call something like that "bloody rude" is a strong over reaction, don't you think? Spitting in someone's face would be bloody rude.

Also, it sounds a lot like "oh no, you used ad hominem in one part of your post so I will dismiss the entire post and conclude you have no argument because you just insult people". Not to mention what she did wasn't just a dismissal, she was being very rude back to him in not one but three posts. Moreover, she was very wrong in her assumptions of him, I guarantee you Dr M would have posted that same comment had this thread been in a totally different forum (I for one would have), but because he was a man she immediately assumed he was being rude because they were women, that he thought he knows better because he is a man.

I'm not sure if I'm misreading the thread, but we're basically at the stage now where people who aren't feminists are berating actual feminists for holding ideas about feminism that refuse to identify as feminists people who don't want to be described as feminists anyway?

I think I might need a lie down.

"It's really really odd that all the people who are arguing that men can be feminists aren't feminists themselves. Why is that?"

Who said any of us are not feminists? Because we argue against you? You keep making these big assumptions that are based on nothing but your own prejudices.

Yes I think men can.

And i sit there thinking "i do that all the time you fuckwit...everyone does...is called being a normal human being"

And I feel exactly the same about all the basics such as equal opportunities, education, prostitution, abortion, contraception. That's just being a decent person and it makes no difference whether you call yourself a feminist or not; calling yourself a feminist does not make you a better person and it does not add extra weight to your opinion.

I completely agree with WhenSheWasBad about not giving a toss about the small stuff.

The apparent obligation to give a toss about the small stuff ;the insistence on this essential "shared experience" and the sort of attitudes expressed on for example the current thread about the Mum's family organiser"( oh isn't it dreadful I had to buy this awful sexist calendar and have to do all the organising) are the reasons why ,despite fully being on board with being a decent human being, I will not call myself a feminist.

Oh and Sparrowhawk your responses to people you disagree with are rude. Your telling me I was tedious yet continuing to demand I answer your questions was rude and high handed.

pooch

Im right there with you

Cept not because that would be weird

DrMorbius isn't a feminist, Lass isn't a feminist, are you a feminist Hilbert?

bertrand

Can you pm me your address so i can send your book

Lost it...sorry

"Who said any of us are not feminists? Because we argue against you? You keep making these big assumptions that are based on nothing but your own prejudices."

OK. You're a feminist. What is your next move?