DP says he is not a feminist..

[andintothefire]

We were having a discussion yesterday and my DP announced that he was not and never would be a feminist. I tried to explain to him that feminism doesn't involve misandry or promoting women over men. He was adamant that it was not a term he would use and laughed at the suggestion that some men also wear "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirts.

I know it shouldn't upset me because he is in his actions very kind and has a daughter who he is very supportive of in terms of education and ambition. He also has no problem at all with me being ambitious and career minded. However it did shake me a bit. I have always previously been in relationships with men who are much more open minded (and more left wing in their views - though this is obviously separate to the feminism issue). It also reminded me of a conversation we had a few weeks ago where he said that I have influenced him not to forward or laugh at sexist emails because he knows I wouldn't like it. I don't want him not to forward them because I wouldn't like it - I want him to realise it is wrong!

It is actually making me wobble about the relationship. Is that a massive over reaction? He really is lovely, but there is a part of me that wonders if our outlook, upbringing and education just make us too divergent on these sorts of issues, especially when I think about having children together.

I suppose I am just posting to start a discussion and to hear views on this..

or Lass, maybe your daughter will be sitting in an engineering class , the only girl to have chosen that option, while the boys around her make jokes about anal sex, and the teacher ignores it.
Will you still 'not be a feminist' then?

Amy is a real person so I won't type what I want to type.

But if you can't imagine a situation where Amy's privilege might be stripped away because she's a woman then you are hard of thinking, frankly.

Someone helpfully linked the Scottish DV stats upthread. Some of those women were Amys once.

I'm a girls-school educated middle class feminist.

Didn't stop one boss (with a SAHW) talking about women in the workplace letting down other women and not hiring someone as he expected her to get pregnant quite soon.

Or another, who knew I was PG, making jokes about me being lazy when I needed to sit down.

I've not known those things happen to a middle class boys-school educated man, TBH.

Amy, there are women who call themselves feminists who support the "sex industry" as a valid career option. Personally I think any one, male or female, who does so at best deluded and at worst evil.

However the statement that no man suffers the same as every women is , for me, an absurd statement. If feminism means buying into that sort of victim mentality coupled with according to one poster here, "leftist thinking " and at the same time shouting that anyone who does not agree is unintelligent and dim , then no I will not be wearing a (made in a sweatshop) " this is what a feminist looks like" t- shirt.

Lass

That's not the statement.

There are a set of disadvantages to being the child bearing class, both global and local.

There are a set of disadvantages to being poor.

There are a set of disadvantages to being black.

Etc.

Any given individual has various advantages and disadvantages.

No one has said that no man suffers as much as every woman. No man has been discriminated against when pregnant, for example, but might have been discriminated against for age, education, accent etc.

It seems very insular and handmaidenly to me to respond to "women are disadvantaged by way of their sex" with "but not every woman and don't forget that men suffer too"

Lass I agree there are, I know some girls from school who do (even though they'd never consider it themselves, when pressed on why if it's so "empowering" an answer is difficult to come by) and I entirely agree with you on that. I find it quite frustrating in fact. But there are also plenty of people who aren't feminists who actively support the sex industry.

I can't answer for what someone else has said nor claim to have great analysis, I'm learning all the time. What I do know though is that I and my (girl) friends have all already experienced numerous instances of sexism of varying degrees. These are experiences we have purely down to our sex and which boys/men don't. It does hold back girls and inhibit us. I don't think it's fair to direct what others have said at me as I've never said anything like that to anyone, but someone not agreeing on the need for feminism doesn't change what so many of us experience.

Gosh, this thread has all got a bit personal...

For me, all women are disadvantaged by way of their sex, but many have privilege that in part (or occasionally in whole) compensates for this, notably money and / or race. Many men are disadvantaged because of personal factors (notably money and / or race), but do not have to contend with being the systemically disadvantaged sex on top of that.

I'm a white, middle class, professional, heterosexual, Western woman. i have a British passport and a US visa. Life is pretty good for me, and I wouldn't dare suggest that men in Somalia, Syria or frankly 90% of the world are living the life of Riley because they are men. I refuse to identify as a victim.

But compared to the lived experience of the white, middle class, professional, heterosexual, Western man, fuck have we got a long way to go! I'm at an age where my female peers are dropping out of the workforce all the time, either never to return or to come back but never achieve their full professional potential. I have had a life time of cat calling, groping, lewd innuendo. Now I am getting older I am becoming invisible (which at least has reduced the sexual harassment), but DH at a very similar age is not. I could go on... (and that's without getting into my fears for my daughter, in an age of pinkification and pornification)

Olennas - I agree. I can understand why some men would look at me and think that I have never been significantly disadvantaged. Compared to most of the UK (let alone the world) I have a very comfortable lifestyle and a successful career in a competitive field. But most of those men have never known what it is like to be sexually assaulted or patronised because of their gender. They haven't had to endure the workplace comments and innuendos about women being less committed because they are likely to leave and have babies. They haven't experienced how ridiculously difficult it is to find somebody who is prepared to have an equal relationship with them when it comes to children and domestic responsibility.

Anyway, it's more than that - I am also a feminist because I realise that problems with gender inequality are amplified for other women in the world. It isn't just about my own experiences but about recognising that issues such as access to abortion, childcare and education are major problems for other women even if they have not been for me.

There are more examples I could give, but ultimately I think that it is wrong to dismiss the lived experiences of a group of people (in this case women, but it could apply equally to people who have experienced racism or social inequality). When there is so much evidence of gender inequality, I don't understand why some people refuse to recognise that it exists in a very significant way.

Isn't it all a bit subjective ? You've no idea about anything that has happened to random white middle class guy, but look on jealously at his life as if it has been a bed of roses compared to yours.

I don't get at what point you sit a young girl down and start explaining to them that the professional women they see round about them are significantly handicapped in life compared to your father, and that wee tommy will have it a whole lot easier than you....given that you have no experience of growing up as a man.

IAmAmy "These are experiences we have purely down to our sex and which boys/men don't."

As long as you hold this view and say it openly, you will always get push back. Because it is flat out not true to begin with, and it sounds dismissive.

ps yes men might not have the exact same experiences, but they have negative experiences because of their sex, too. Maybe overall less than women, but that is irrelevant to a certain degree, at least when you make a blanket statement like the one above. It also shows that ironically you say men don't/can't see it from the women's perspective, and yet you obviously can't the other way round either.

No one has said they are "jealous of men".

HTH.

"I don't get at what point you sit a young girl down and start explaining to them "

Patronising much?

There's a school girl on this thread experiencing street harassment. That hasn't happened because someone sat her down and explained sexism, FFS.

Actually I think virtually every woman I know who identifies as a feminist recognises the impact that expectations based on gender can have on men too. I have no problem with men fighting for their rights to equal child access in the event of divorce, for example. I am quite prepared to recognise that there are ways in which men are disadvantaged. But that doesn't detract from the ways in which women are disadvantaged too!

I don't see jealousy - frustration, anger, sadness yes, but I'm certainly not jealous. I don't want to be a man, I like being a woman!

And I'm not talking about random man, I'm talking about my good friends and family who I know pretty well. I know their lives haven't been a bed of roses, and many are talented individuals who have succeeded in life on their own merits, not just because of the contents of their pants. But to deny that as a class men have an advantage that women do not enjoy, is basically to support the patriarchy and declare feminism as null and void, surely?

There was a thread a little while ago where MNers detailed their experience of sexual harassment. There were a few pp who said that they hadn't ever had this personally, but the vast majority of posts agreed that sexual harassment was a wide-spread issue, with their experiences ranging from "just" groping and cat-calling to horrific rape and violent abuse.

I doubt that a thread on a male dominated forum would have that response (I am not saying that men aren't victims of sexual abuse, by the way).

When we - me, my sister, my friends, my mother, my aunt - are treated in this way from a very early age (the first time I remember being wolf-whistled I was thirteen and in school uniform), we don't need to sit our daughters down and tell them some revelatory story about little Tommy looking nice but soon he's going to steal away their life chances because he has a penis and they don't.

Yonic

There's a difference between pointing out that women suffer sexism that men don't and concluding from this that boys are going to "steal away your life chances" is there not ?

Yonic exactly. Also that poster complaining at women not knowing what "middle class white guys" might have experienced in life having posted earlier about how I am "already the recipient of a vast amount of privilege" without knowing anything about me (other than the street harassment suffered he totally dismissed and ignored on another thread) and that "middle class women in the UK" all have "very nice lives" would be amusing if it didn't say so much about how little empathy or concern he has for women or girls.

Olennas very well put. I remember the first time I was harassed on the street at 14 well and doubt I'll ever forget it no matter how many times it continues to happen. I don't think my parents ever talked to me about sexism, I started talking about it with them. Luckily they were very open to discussion and listening to how I felt about it, my dad was never dismissive and has told me since he thinks a lot about what I say, which is nice. Hopefully this will all have a positive impact on my younger brothers (the elder of the two is showing interest)!

Actually I did not say that they "all" had very nice lives at all...at least argue with what I said rather than attack a false representation. You keep saying that I have denied your experiences, but I haven't. Finally, on the point of empathy, I thought it was already established that I couldn't share your feelings because I'm a man and will never experience them. i.e. I can't imagine how it would feel which is why I couldn't call myself a feminist.

It sounds like you really mean "sympathise".

"There was a thread a little while ago where MNers detailed their experience of sexual harassment. There were a few pp who said that they hadn't ever had this personally, but the vast majority of posts agreed that sexual harassment was a wide-spread issue, with their experiences ranging from "just" groping and cat-calling to horrific rape and violent abuse."

Because MN, and that thread in particular, is representative of women as a whole? Same reason people were so shocked that Trump won - on their social media, particularly FB, they just saw what they wanted to see, the algorithm suppressed other news or other status' (plus your friend group was selective to begin with). I am not saying you are wrong, just pointing out drawing such conclusions is not so straightforward.

By applying cetris paribus (all other things remaining equal) then it is utterly apparent where the shoe pinches most, and that is on women. eg the white wc man is immeasurably better 'favoured' by society than the white wc woman, though the white wc man may not see that at all.

Denying this is the case indicates a short fall in awareness of how society is structured and v naive view that individual circs are just that, individual, and nothing can be gleaned from the anaysis of individuals.

I'd think the idea that 'boys will still your life chances' isn't something well expressed. BUT...' some of your life chances will be gifted to boys, by virtue of you being female' .

THAT conclusion IS very straight forward (that sexual intimidation and assault is widespread), ibprog - every, every and every again source of information/survey/personal anecdote/personal awareness of women I know/have known confirms it all. No source has ever said anything otherwise.

I'm also wondering why you would choose that issue to undermine. You don't think it's true?

This is a massive Red Flag.

He is telling you what he is and you would do well to take heed.

When it all implodes 5 yrs down the line he will be able to remind you that he told you 5 yrs ago how he felt.

Exactly, Strictly - that thread was both shocking and unsurprising to me, because it confirmed that my experience and the experience of 90% of my female friends and family was common to other women