DP says he is not a feminist..

[andintothefire]

We were having a discussion yesterday and my DP announced that he was not and never would be a feminist. I tried to explain to him that feminism doesn't involve misandry or promoting women over men. He was adamant that it was not a term he would use and laughed at the suggestion that some men also wear "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirts.

I know it shouldn't upset me because he is in his actions very kind and has a daughter who he is very supportive of in terms of education and ambition. He also has no problem at all with me being ambitious and career minded. However it did shake me a bit. I have always previously been in relationships with men who are much more open minded (and more left wing in their views - though this is obviously separate to the feminism issue). It also reminded me of a conversation we had a few weeks ago where he said that I have influenced him not to forward or laugh at sexist emails because he knows I wouldn't like it. I don't want him not to forward them because I wouldn't like it - I want him to realise it is wrong!

It is actually making me wobble about the relationship. Is that a massive over reaction? He really is lovely, but there is a part of me that wonders if our outlook, upbringing and education just make us too divergent on these sorts of issues, especially when I think about having children together.

I suppose I am just posting to start a discussion and to hear views on this..

Lol @ black humour being racist jokes about black people 😂

Even more Lols about Dave Chappelle being a racist comedian.

OP, people who forward sexist jokes are sexist.

It's not just that he's not a feminist, it's that he's a sexist man.

If wouldn't date a man who forwarded sexist jokes and only stopped because he knew you wouldn't like it, then you shouldn't date him.

Lass it's not being "an eternal victim", it's true. I don't think of myself as a "victim" but can still recognise how much sexism women and girls face. Having talked about it a lot with my parents too my dad completely agrees, and thankfully would call himself a feminist - which is great as in his position in a still male dominated workplace he's very much able to have a positive influence.

Women and girls do face disadvantages and misogyny daily, to say that is just being honest.

" And that sort of thinking is why I am not a feminist , women as eternal victim"

Lass the only reason you can smugly say that you are not a feminist is because the work has already been done for you by eg the suffragettes. It is not about being a 'victim' it is about equality of opportunity.
You sound remarkably unintelligent as well as
dimly smug.

Brat

Lass is not unintelligent

Lass

Saying someone has disadvantages is a long way from saying someone is q victim.

well honestly she doesnt sound too bright does she?

I think Lass is the sort of person who comes onto those threads where women share their negative experiences at the hands of men and implies that because it has never happened to her it has never happened

quite AnyFucker. I rest my case.

I always wondered really whether 'feminism' was the right term anyway...rather 'feminisms' might be better as not every thing in feminism sees eye to eye. Perhaps you might discuss this with your DP OP as perhaps there is a strand of feminism that he feels uncomfortable with, which is hindering him being able to adjust to that particular label.

Which feminism is OK with being sexist?

Sorry I wasn't suggesting that men couldn't benefit from a society more aligned with feminist thinking. What I'm getting it is that there isn't any other political movement which aims to shape society (maybe I am being too grand with that description) which excludes men or women.

e.g. could I say - you don't get to be a socialist because you haven't experienced genuine poverty ?

Those are champagne socialists, aren't they?

Anyway, I prefer feminist ally but I'm nit that bothered on names. Actions speak louder.

Like, for example take young Amy. Obviously a well educated and intelligent young woman with a bright future ahead of her, goes to a selective school, already the recipient of a vast amount of privilege. But yet all I hear is the screaming injustices women face. There are issues that affect women and I get that, but I'm with lass on this, most women, especially middle class ones in the UK live a very pleasant life indeed and face little real hardship at all. Complaining that most of the men you've met in your life are annoying is fair enough but then I would say the same thing.

Is it possible that the very concept of sexism holds a subjective component? Some might experience this post as mansplaining whilst others may tolerate it, and yet others might welcome it. Who is right in this instance? My intention becomes secondary to the effect.

I would however strive to take ownership of my interactions with other people. In the same way I will reflexively say 'sorry' if myself and a stranger collide in the street. Irrespective about whose fault it is it's a recognition of another persons personhood, and very existance. Can there not be conversational equivilants?

The gold standard in human interactions are win/win outcomes. Feminism exists because too many interactions between men and women are win/lose with women losing out. With women losing because they are women.

Now obviously life is never fair at all times, but it can't be impossible to extract from the pile of win/lose interactions those that exist on account of sex. I guess what I am saying is that it's easier to argue from effect rather than intent.

Pear you accused me of condescension on the other thread don't do it to Amy please. Someone can be middle class, eductated and black. That doesn't excuse or mitigate any racism they experience.

Dervel

Amy is more than capable of robustly defending herself in my experience. How gentlemanly of you.

"Like, for example take young Amy. Obviously a well educated and intelligent young woman with a bright future ahead of her"

Who is well-educated at the age of 16?

"There are issues that affect women and I get that, but I'm with lass on this, most women, especially middle class ones in the UK live a very pleasant life indeed and face little real hardship at all."

I heard this argument recently on anther forum "the ME and other areas need feminism, we in the West don't".

I don't get it, just because it may not be as big an issue as it used to be, or it is a bigger issue elsewhere, it should be ignored?

I think Lass is the sort of person who comes onto those threads where women share their negative experiences at the hands of men and implies that because it has never happened to her it has never happened

That is your spin. "Lived experience " seems only to matter if it validates the statement that all Precisely none of them have come anywhere near experiencing the disadvantages that women face every single day

That does not remotely represent my lived experience.

Brat I don't particularly care if you think I am "unintelligent" - your comment says a lot about you.

A partner saying he wasn't a feminist, and forwarding and enjoying sexist jokes, would be a deal breaker for me.

Even if you can't detect this attitude in his behaviour now, it is there. In how he thinks about you. In how he thinks about your daughter. And how he will end up treating you both.

" Brat I don't particularly care if you think I am "unintelligent" - your comment says a lot about you."

well you obviously DO, or you wouldn't have mentioned it...
Your comments say an awful lot about you .
Stick to thoughtlessly bleating that you are not a feminist then.

I think you're being selectively reactive there Atrocious (returning to the OP..) - there's a fair bit of specualtion there and totes ignores the more admirable aspects of the person in question.

Indeed Lass

Precisely none of them have come anywhere near experiencing the disadvantages that women face every single day

This is basically an invitation to see who feels the most hard done by. It is self evident that on a daily basis an awful lot of men face many more and more significant disadvantages than middle class white women in the UK. Oppression Olympics is I believe the phrase en vogue. The trans lobby seem very skilled in the art.

If you feel that strongly about feminism, surely you should have found out his views before entering a relationship with him?

Lass the next time a man harasses me in the street, I see a misogynist meme or rape "joke", see how many boys speak of girls, or a boy gropes a friend or I at a party the fact that you don't feel you experience sexism isn't going to change that I and many others do, regularly.

I would hate the idea of a partner forwarding sexist jokes, even boys I'm good friends with never would or I wouldn't be friends with them, so it's positive he stopped though as you say it'd be better he stopped due to seeing the casual sexism they perpetuate. Not calling themselves a feminist in itself I wouldn't have a huge issue with, as has been said "actions speak louder than words", but his dismissive attitude to feminism isn't nice. I'd be very upset if my dad was like that for example.

Quite a few posters have said that I should have found out his views before entering into a relationship. To be perfectly honest, it never occurred to me to bring it up - I think I have always assumed that "nice" people who I am friends with would understand both that casual sexist jokes are wrong and that women face issues that men don't. I don't need him to call himself a "feminist", although again I have never before been in a relationship with a man who would shy away from using that term. Nothing in his actions or views over the last couple of years have suggested otherwise until recently!

Perhaps I have also lived in a liberal, educated bubble. This thread has been very helpful. I am going to have a serious discussion with him and find out what he really thinks about the issues that matter to me. I am hoping that he just didn't express himself very well and that on probing it will be clear that we do actually share the same values (as PPs have put it) and that he is open to learning more. If not then I am just setting myself up for a lifetime of disappointment with somebody who I won't be able fully to respect.

Thanks all.