DP says he is not a feminist..

[andintothefire]

We were having a discussion yesterday and my DP announced that he was not and never would be a feminist. I tried to explain to him that feminism doesn't involve misandry or promoting women over men. He was adamant that it was not a term he would use and laughed at the suggestion that some men also wear "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirts.

I know it shouldn't upset me because he is in his actions very kind and has a daughter who he is very supportive of in terms of education and ambition. He also has no problem at all with me being ambitious and career minded. However it did shake me a bit. I have always previously been in relationships with men who are much more open minded (and more left wing in their views - though this is obviously separate to the feminism issue). It also reminded me of a conversation we had a few weeks ago where he said that I have influenced him not to forward or laugh at sexist emails because he knows I wouldn't like it. I don't want him not to forward them because I wouldn't like it - I want him to realise it is wrong!

It is actually making me wobble about the relationship. Is that a massive over reaction? He really is lovely, but there is a part of me that wonders if our outlook, upbringing and education just make us too divergent on these sorts of issues, especially when I think about having children together.

I suppose I am just posting to start a discussion and to hear views on this..

or..errr...a woman even.

Like I said, it's about lived experience

I can subscribe lots of things. But I cannot, for example, know how it feels to be subject to racism. I am a white priviliged woman. It doesn't mean that I can't be opposed to racism, and to live my life not upholding it.

Thank you Dervel. That saved me some phone keyboard strokes.

As regulars know I don't describe myself as a feminist . I dislike as one poster put it, "the siege mentality"; the perpetual victimhood of being a woman ; the infantilisation of women as never being free agents.

If the statement like the one below is an accurate assessment of feminism then I can't buy into it.

First of all, feminism is very much a leftist project

I am socially and culturally liberal but on economic grounds , (soft) right of centre.

However I cannot see how any half decent person could not believe that:-
Girls and women should have equal opportunities in education and work;
Abortion and contraception should be free and legal;
Prostitution should not be legalised nor decriminalised;
Pornography , stripping, "the sex industry" is degrading and dehumanising.
Racist and sexist jokes are not funny.

Do all of you that find sexist jokes completely inappropriate (even going so far to say you would not date someone who laughed at them), also find racist jokes completely inappropriate? Either hypocritical or surprising, giving the UK is known for its black humor

That is not what "black humour" means.

I agree completely with Dervel's post at 19.02

Whereas the comment below does not resonate with me. I don't know what this "lived experience" is I'm supposed to share with other /all woman

It is about lived experience for me

AF

But why bother making that distinction ?

Because that is how I see it

You may not

Fair enough. I would only observe that all women have lived experience of being women, but not all women are feminists. So it seems to me to be a bit illogical. I can understand the the movement is for and by women, and you don't men to take it over....but that seems a bit problematic given that it's aims must be to effect legislation that directly affects boys and possibly men ? Maybe men can be political feminists or something ?

I don't spend too much time agonising into how we can include men in feminism, tbh

Precisely none of them have come anywhere near experiencing the disadvantages that women face every single day

Maybe men can be political feminists or something

They can be allies. If they are prepared to first shut up and listen. Unfortunately in my experience they find that quite difficult.

*I, as a white person, do not feel affected by racism. I am not very involved in any anti-racism movement, either. However, I am very much against racism in principle, and would never laugh about, or even forward, racist jokes.

And that is what I expect from men when it comes to sexism/misogyny*

This as a bare minimum. I also think it's beholden on white people to try to listen and understand about racism and its effects. Same for men and sexism. I kind of expect the good ones to pay proper attention to the issue and understand how they can contribute to a better world.

CharlieSierra "They can be allies. If they are prepared to first shut up and listen. Unfortunately in my experience they find that quite difficult."

Shocker.

Not really, lib

That is most women's experience of most men. Are you saying you are different ?

Oh FGS.

Grow "but that seems a bit problematic given that it's aims must be to effect legislation that directly affects boys and possibly men ? Maybe men can be political feminists or something ?"

That's one of the oddest descriptions I've come across. Suppose we legislate so that women can't be obliged to wear skirts or high heels as part of uniform policies or dress codes. What the bleep has it to do with men?

I find the ones who actually say they are feminists can be the worst. My husband and son wouldn't dream of being so presumptious, but both completely get it. The ones who have joined my RL feminist group however........

I know what you mean about men who claim to be 'feminists' they are usually the same ones that say 'if I was a woman I would be a lesbian'...

That is my experience too, Charlie

Suppose we legislate so that women can't be obliged to wear skirts or high heels as part of uniform policies or dress codes. What the bleep has it to do with men?

Oh come on. Men need Feminism ? Are you just gonna tell them what to do and how to do it ? That's what I'm getting at.

Off topic but did anyone see the article in The Times by Philip Davies about how hard done by 'the silent sex' are?

Grow, you didn't get at that with any clarity!

As for men needing feminism, I think they'd benefit from a fairer world. I don't expect a white woman to see racism exactly as I do because they don't have my lived experience but again, I think the benefit is fairness itself.

Well, I would argue that men can benefit from feminism, both because more equal societies are better for everyone, but because the efforts of feminists on things like breaking down the gender barriers works both ways, so men can pursue typically female professions - or no profession at all and stay at home with the children.

I can think of loads of ways feminism has either benefited me or could benefit me in the future.

• Without the challenging of gender roles thus far I would have been unlikely to have enjoyed being as hands on a father as I am.
• Whilst in lots of ways I am traditionally masculine I very much like the aspects of myself that have been often described as girly or feminine. I have felt much more at liberty to pursue those aspects of my nature.

For the future if things continue to progress down this path:

• Once women are as safe in the public sphere as I am I will benefit from more healthy interactions. I'm a people person the fact that half the population have cause to be frightened of me is a barrier I could do without.
• If upon achieving something in life the knowledge it was 100% my own with no niggling doubts there was a system set up that eased my path to success.

There are more, but you get the idea.

Yy dervel.

Both DH and I put in a flexible working request after our first child. We were a bit too early for shared parental leave but he would have loved to do that.

I don't spend too much time agonising into how we can include men in feminism, tbh

Precisely none of them have come anywhere near experiencing the disadvantages that women face every single day

And that sort of thinking is why I am not a feminist. Woman as eternal victim.