DP says he is not a feminist..

[andintothefire]

We were having a discussion yesterday and my DP announced that he was not and never would be a feminist. I tried to explain to him that feminism doesn't involve misandry or promoting women over men. He was adamant that it was not a term he would use and laughed at the suggestion that some men also wear "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirts.

I know it shouldn't upset me because he is in his actions very kind and has a daughter who he is very supportive of in terms of education and ambition. He also has no problem at all with me being ambitious and career minded. However it did shake me a bit. I have always previously been in relationships with men who are much more open minded (and more left wing in their views - though this is obviously separate to the feminism issue). It also reminded me of a conversation we had a few weeks ago where he said that I have influenced him not to forward or laugh at sexist emails because he knows I wouldn't like it. I don't want him not to forward them because I wouldn't like it - I want him to realise it is wrong!

It is actually making me wobble about the relationship. Is that a massive over reaction? He really is lovely, but there is a part of me that wonders if our outlook, upbringing and education just make us too divergent on these sorts of issues, especially when I think about having children together.

I suppose I am just posting to start a discussion and to hear views on this..

Back to the OP, my DH is a Tory, Maggie loving voter (yeah, I know, I know - we counter each other out electorally...). He wouldn't describe himself as a feminist, because he sees that label as reserved for female activists. But he isn't racist or sexist, and though he would hate me to say it, through his actions (particularly regarding DD) he shows himself to be a feminist, which is more important to me than self-identification.

OneOrgasmicBirthPlease "I am not entirely sure what you are trying to argue."

I am very surprised that you categorically reject jokes based on prejudices. I moved on from sexism to another example, racism, to see if you were consistent, and it turns out you are, which I have already praised you for being sincere for.

That was basically it, but I was replying to a lot of people so maybe overall it wasn't very clear what I was saying.

OneOrgasmicBirthPlease - you see, I find that hilarious. but would i forward it to work colleagues, hell no.

Thread seems to have been derailed, but is he opposed to feminism (your OP doesn't seem to indicate this) or would not call himself a feminist?
I have spoken to lots of women who say they're not feminists, then you start to probe them with questions - do you believe women are equal to men? oh of course, do you believe women should have equal pay to men? naturally!
And it turns out they believe many things which are core to feminism, yet still wouldn't call themselves feminists.
Doesn't surprise me that a man would too. If he agrees with all those things (or not) is probably more important than whether he identifies as such or not.

FFS growapear

Iam doubting the OP embarked on this thread in anticipation of your embittered notion of feminism and how 'unfair' and personal it all means to you.

Get over yourself and have a look at what other posters think and feel.

However, there is a lot of fun to be had making fun of sexism and racism, which, to me, is black humour, since these issues are not funny. Picture attached.

That picture you attached is just quoting a sexist attitude. That's not funny.

I know a number of jokes about racists that are funny, but the only funny jokes about sexists I have ever seen are the "MRA Cthulhu" pictures.

io9.gizmodo.com/feminist-yog-sothoth-will-drive-you-insane-after-gettin-1016744654

StrictlyPan

FFS yourself, I'm just giving my own opinion, based on my own thoughts, about why men might say they are not feminist. What is my opinion not valid cos you don't like it ? The only person who needs to get over themselves is you.

I thought it was a funny picture, in the same way that I laughed at the HArry Enfield "women, know your limits!" sketches, Al Murray's Pub Landlord and the scene in Extras where Ricky Gervais moves someone in a wheelchair so he can sit down. They hold up a mirror to these behaviours and invite us to laugh at how ridiculous they are (even if we are also cringing inside that some people do indeed hold these views or behave in these ways)

Oleannas what are you doing with my DP and can you kindly give him back when you're finished with him . Exactly that - it's the intention and action that's important (to me) rather than the label.

For all DH is a Tory, he wants the same things as me for society, it's just we have fundamentally opposed different ideas how to get there.

one thing I find with those pictures, there are so many views out there, it's hard to tell, with minimal information, if it's a joke.

something like the Harry Enfield sketch, purely because there's more to and it and you can listen to the tone etc, is clear. But with memes, esp if posted by someone you don't know - it is hard to tell.

Ricky Gervais is very black when he's not being self-indulgent. Frankie Boyle too but he flirts with the edges too much for my taste and can veer into disablism. Neither of these would ever make a joke about a black person 'being black' though.

'British humour' isn't 'dark humour' at all. The hallmark is taking satirical side-ways looks at human behaviour and then illustrating it. Yes a bit like Extras and Al Murray where the butt of the joke is pretty clear. Gavin and Stacey is another eg.

ok back on topic from me too - OP, I think it's fair to say that in a work environment (and from the women's perspective who reject sexist jokes in any setting) this kind of joke just perpetuates a normalization of sexism.

I would explain that to your partner (he doesn't seem to get that) and ask him to stop. If this means a lot to you, it is fair enough to ask him to stop - relationships are all about compromise (well maybe the 100% compatible couple exists, but I assume they would be one in a million). You just have to prioritize if this is something so important you want him to change for it. Who knows, maybe once you explain it he might, ok I didn't see it that way I will stop.

Lorelei - agree, tone is hard to convey online (and most memes are shit anyway)

Lonny - thank you for articulating better that me why your relationship with your DP (and mine with my DH!) works - I 'm going to steal it and adapt it slightly: "he wants the same things as me for society and our family, it's just we have different ideas how to get there"

libprog I think when people say stuff about "black humour" they normally mean a morbid sense of humour (ie jokes about death etc) rather than jokes about black people....

lib, wonder if you are thinking of gallows humour.
my first coherent remark after Trump was elected was to wonder if sales of knitting needles and antiseptic would go up. It isn't funny but it was the only thing I could say to stop myself and my boss from going into a crying jag, which we were absolutely teetering on.

See, I think of gallows humour as making light of a bad situation over which you have no control (which may include death)

Black humour to me is laughing at things that you know you shouldn't really laugh at, like cancer, divorce, small child falling over, and indeed death. I would include your knitting needles comment in that definition

Oleanna, I can't see how the comment about knitting needles isn't gallows humour - I have no control over that bad situation...?

Maybe - gallows humour seems more personal than your example. It's my friend, upon hearing that his leg would need to be amputated, saying that it as never his favourite foot anyway and at least it was five fewer toe nails to cut. It's Blackadder and Baldrick in the trenches.

If you had said something like "good job it was last year that I needed an abortion, if I need one next year I better hope that there hasn't been a run on knitting needles", that would move it towards gallows humour. (IMHO anyway!)

I don't mind the derailing of the thread! I think the question about racist jokes is interesting, and I would also have a huge problem with that (at least in the context of somebody forwarding on racist joke emails).

I don't think he is opposed to feminism - he just doesn't really understand it. I also don't think we have to agree on everything - as other posters have pointed out, you can have a strong relationship with somebody who has different political views.

Thanks for all your comments so far. Lots of interesting food for thought. I guess I just need to keep explaining my views and try hard to get him to understand why feminism is important not only to me and his daughter, but to society as a whole. I don't think he gets it at the moment!

Finding out exactly what he means by a feminist would be a good start - and maybe phrasing examples by putting it about his dd when she grows up would help to discover how feminist he is in his attitudes. So - do you expect dd to be paid the same as a man doing the exact same job when she grows up or do you think she should be paid less, given that everything else is equal? is a good starter, plus maybe asking him to forward you a couple of the sexist emails he gets but change the man and woman bits over to see if you find them funny then... Or to put his dd into the woman's role. Not saying that you will of course, but having to actively change them so that they are saying something horrible about him or men in general might make him stop and think more.

Confuugled - thanks, great advice.

I don't believe that men can be feminists. I do however think it is perfectly possible to support feminist principles without being a "feminist"

It is about lived experience for me. Same reason transwomen cannot be feminists, by definition.

Feminism seems to suggest that women, who already academically outperform boys and men, do so despite all the odds of a society that has stacked the odds against them. If you think about this, it means that women actually have to work harder and fight harder for everything they get, so they're not really my peers at all. It seems to me like if I really believed this, then when presented with two similarly qualified candidates, i would be utterly insane to give the man a job, because the women must've worked harder and fought more to get to the same level.

See, I think women do have the odds stacked against them, at least in the workplace. I have to work harder to be taken seriously by some clients and by some more senior colleagues, who seem to assume that as a woman I am less ambitious and career-focused. I have male colleagues who have two or three children and they either come back straight to work after a couple of days' leave after their births, or are praised to high heaven for leaving work early to look after them. I know this is a trite opinion on a board like this, so I am hardly saying anything groundbreaking, but I wish men did understand a little more how women often get a frightening awakening to sexism when they move from a more equal academic environment to the workplace.

I'm a man, and wouldn't say I was a feminist if asked. Mainly because feminism has so many meanings to so many people.

I am also politically opposed to socialism, which in a modern context a great many feminists are aligned with, so there is contention there.

I am also of the opinion there are differences between men and women that I don't think are entirely down to environment. Which I understand would be an unpopular view in most feminist circles.

However when it comes to specific issues I more often than not find I agree with feminist positions.

• Reproductive rights are essential to any society.
• Girls should have equal access to education, and suffer no barriers to the career of their choice.
• Men and Women should be paid the same for the same jobs across the board.
• A much greater awareness of women's contributions to civilisation (sports, history, science and well every field really).
• Better representation in the media. Particularly where sexism and ageism combine.
• I take a very feminist position on the subject of consent. Rape isn't a grey area.

I also for some reason feel uncomfortable when some men virtue signal with the whole "I am a feminist" line particularly when they go on to not treat women particularly well.

I also accept that some of my views may be inaccurate/flawed, so everything for me is a bit of a work in progress if I'm honest.

I think one can be pro-women without claiming the label feminist.

You sound like my H, Dervel, every time I see your posts

Are you sure it's not you, sweetikins ?

Thanks for responding, I agree that women's careers take a dip after childbirth, they usually are the ones who choose or end up maybe is a better way of putting it, being first point of contact for the kids, my wife and I never discussed once she made it clear she didn't want to go back to work.

AF

I do however think it is perfectly possible to support feminist principles without being a "feminist"

Is there any practical difference though ? How can you not "be" something that amounts to a set of political beliefs focussed on women without being a women ?