13 year old dd accused me of not being a feminist

[HenryIX]

Dd went to a party last night. She came downstairs dressed in tiny cut off shorts. She has worn these often, with thick tights underneath. Last night she did not have the tights on.
It was cold last night, but also, she was dressed like a 17 year old, not a just turned 13 year old.
My first words, without thinking were ' You aren't going out dressed like that!'

So it got me thinking, I do believe a woman should be able to dress as she wants. But she is not a woman, she is a child.
Where do I draw the line, what age should I let her choose how to dress?
And more importantly, what do I say to her when she wakes up today and is grumpy that I didn't let her wear what she wanted?

Don't agree with the sexual signal thing. Clothes are clothes. Otherwise nearly all clothes are sending out a 'sexual signal'. We're not all wearing shapeless cassocks.

Clothes aren't just clothes at all. Most women know the different ways the world responds depending on your clothing. Professional, scruffy, sporty, academic, sexy. They are so much more than meaningless ways of keeping warm.

Batteries, clothes SHOULD be just clothes. They really should. But to claim they are is to ignore the fact that the patriarchy exists, that society has different rules by gender, that there is such a thing as a fashion industry even.
There have been so many spoofs of the ways that women's clothing ranges have been advertised (one of the outdoor mags did a fairly recent spoof and advertised men's clothes in the way that women's outdoor gear is usually advertised) - even functional technical ranges are not immune from the idea that women are there to be objectified, and for the pleasure of the male gaze.
How many internet monstrosities have you seen dictating that fat women shouldn't wear leggings? Taking the piss out of women wearing fleeces with animals on them? Spending two pages on what a female politician is wearing to work and whether her cleavage is dangerously low for a woman of her age? Whether a politician should leopard print shoes? When the only time a male politician's shoes are of note is because he gets a new pair in budget day? When Hillary Clinton is reviled for wearing a trouser suit?
Women's clothing is policed every single day.
As a new lecturer, I sat through an upright feminist prof in good standing wincing lay explaining to a bunch of professionals that unfortunately, even in this day and age, to be taken seriously in your job, the female grads would have to be aware that their sartorial choices would be examined in far greater depth than their male counterparts.
But right. Just clothes.
How mind-numbingly and inappropriately right-on.
You are erasing women's lived experience.

I felt disconcerted recently. Someone I know had their daughter helping them at work. Mother is always very nicely dressed for work, and looks fashionable and professional. Young teenage daughter was there In very short shorts, bare legs and with a skimpy top that left very little to the imagination. I couldn't think of an reason she shouldn't be dressed like that but I just found it inappropriate and thought if she was my daughter I'd have suggested she ear something more covered up - but why?

This blog is worth reading. www.houstonpress.com/arts/the-apparently-immoral-shoulders-of-my-five-year-old-daughter-7372634

I've worked with hundreds of 13 year old girls. Most want to roll their school skirts up and expose more flesh rather than wear longer skirts. Because patriarchy. But they aren't old enough to see that so we have to see it for them. Saying "clothes are clothes" and "legs are legs" is just disingenuous and unhelpful on this one.

That's a five year old dressed like a five year old. Annoying, but not relevant here.

On the face of it, clothing shouldn't make any difference at all. It shouldn't. But we know that objects get cultural significance for all sorts of reasons - just look at red poppies, white poppies, Fifa, pink ribbons, yellow ribbons, black armbands, before going anywhere near fashion.
If the dd was of an age and an understanding where she was capable of realizing that she was breaking unwritten (or even written) rules (I have worked in many places with a dress policy where shorts are not allowed - on either sex) and made the decision to wear them anyway, then all power to her. Her mum letting her wear them if it was going to be problematic (embarrassing for the dd to realize she was dressed differently/ have other people comment that it was inappropriate, or whatever) was either unintentionally putting her dd in a difficult position, or intentionally using her to question the rules. I wouldn't be using my dd in that way - but would be happy for her to choose to put herself in that position once she understood it.
I run a youth group for 12-14 yo girls. Once a year we run 'reduce reuse recycle' night where they all bring in clothes and swap them. It's essentially a giant jumble sale but no money changes hands. We have girls who dress in tight form fitting stuff, girls who wear sports gear, girls who wear dresses, and girls who dress as mutant ninja turtles (zero kidding). We encourage them to try on everything, and we talk a lot about societal expectations, what it really means, whether it should matter at all, and we have a frank discussion about what rules they believe they are expected to conform to (we deconstruct 'em all). It's always fascinating to me - we have three different schools in town, and each has their own set of very explicit unwritten rules. In one school, the girls wear make up. Lots of it. In order to be the 'in crowd' they also conform much more closely to the form fitting 'sexy' image. They are expected to be attractive to the boys. And they work for it. Another school has a much more rigid dress policy, but the girls have already noticed that the social rules in this school vary by year group. The older girls (currently) don't do make up, eschew fashion, and wear jeans and hoodies. The younger girls (12-13) are already wearing lots of make-up, complicated hair expectations, and deliberately flout the dress rules (skinny shoulder straps, shorts or skirts that are above fingertips with hands by sides).
These kids know what the rules are, but until we ask them why, they haven't really thought about it, and haven't considered explicitly whether they want to conform or not. (Except the mutant ninja turtle. She knows absolutely that she does not want to conform.) Size always come up. As does attracting the opposite sex.
We also ask them what the rules for guys in their peer group are.
We don't guide them in any way. And we make it super clear that all choices are equal. Just provide a forum that they can explore clothing and fashion expectations and acknowledge that they are (notionally) free to dress how they want to, and be true to themselves. Some of them even go home with something they have never even considered wearing before, but have discovered that they like. And everyone respects everyone else's choices. I don't want any of them taking photos of someone else's leggings clad arse on an escalator and posting it online. Some of them even wear arse shorts.
And we take the leftovers to a refuge.
Then we get on with the rest of the year's programming, because fuck knows, clothes aren't the be-all and end-all of a woman's existence, but they are yet another part that we get judged on. I just want my dd's (and these gals) to be able to think about the clothes they wear, and make choices (or decide not to make choices - in itself a valid choice!)

Morris I could not agree more. However for expressing that view I have been told multiple times by Sparrow that I am the problem. I too thought I was a feminist until I walked into the parallel universe that is this thread.

I fully agree with pontification.
Clothes should only be clothes. However they aren't. We judge people on what they are wearing all the time. Just look at people's reaction when they see someone who is badly dressed, old type of clothes and then compare it to someone very smartly dressed. (We know people will think the smartly one is better educated and more intelligent as well as more trustworthy). Or how the way you dress say something about you class.

Saying that wearing a tight fitting dress will have no issue or even should have no effect on behaviour just doesn't work with the reality around us.
It does, just as being dressed smartly says something about you when you go to an interview.

It doesn't mean it's right or that it's OK for women to be objectified. Or that the way a woman/girl is dressed makes more at risk of rape and that's normal.
But unless we can change the whole way that human beings are working, we will always be judge on our appearance. And at the moment, tight fitting clothes, mini skirts means it's ok to make sexual advances to these women/girls. Or maybe more that they are OK with it.

And yes, in my experience, the clothes you are wearing makes a difference on how much sexual advances you are getting. Same with age actually (women who are 50+ don't attract nearly as much attention as your under women)

Pontification we did a similar exercise with Brownies looking at portrayed media images of beauty to get the girls to desceminate

what is going on the world around them with air brushing and unrealistic pictures of what they were apparently trying to live up to etc. It was interesting but you always felt you were only barely scratching the surface with them.

'How mind-numbingly and inappropriately right-on.
You are erasing women's lived experience.'

No, I am not. You are entirely missing my point.

Almost all the 13 year old girls I see on an educational basis wear appropriate clothing, the majority preferring comfort over style.

I would suggest you go about wearing a push up bra and low neck when her friends come to visit. See what she says about that? I bet she will have something to say about it. Or walk around the house in short shorts. Trust me on this. She will remark on it. It's one rule for the young ones, but a different set they feel for those looking after them.

If that doesn't work hire out a Victorian mum dress, to wear to parent teacher evening, or even more radical, wear a veil. Say you are recapturing your catholic youth.

The point is that it is entirely appropriate for a 16 year old, should she so wish, to dress in a way that attracts male-or female- attention. It is never appropriate for a 13 year old to dress in such a way.

It is also, it goes without saying, for a man not to accept, immediately and cheerfully a "no" from a woman, regardless of how she is dressed.

The statement that it's never appropriate for a 13 year old to dress in a way that attracts attention makes no sense. I was wolf whistled while wearing my school uniform at 13. It's not something I had control over. Boys and men will foist their attention on girls no matter what they're wearing.

I grew up in an Asian country where rapes are so usual that you don't even hear of anything except the very high profile instances. Street molestations, groping on public transport, wolf whistled at, getting your breasts grabbed - all very usual.

Men gathered in street corners, in huge groups, leering and whistling. Schoolgirls knowing its usual to be fondled on public buses which burst to the seams with the pressure of population. Teen girls knowing returning home alone at any hour of the day is unsafe with bells on.

'Honour' killings.

Punishment rapes ordered by mock
Courts.

In that context, my parents always insisted that I wore clothing that doesn't display certain parts of my body. Their logic was "we can't beat all of the horrid men. But if you went out today showing your cleavage we wouldn't be able to protect you from a possible experience that will disgust and demean you." They were genuinely worried. They Were not
Victim blaming. It was literally a case of venturing out amongst wolves. This was a very specific culural context.

Not all parents had that stance. As it so happened, I spent my adolescence wearing loose baggy clothing. The wolves didn't pay me much attention.

Even today if I visit home my aging parents worry if I am not back in the evening before too dark. Because they know how the streets work.

This is an extreme example to use to think through parental choices. Yes they COULD make the argument that I can wear what on earth I want and I SHOULD able to. But if I had gone out in the dark wearing a cleavage revealing top in that godawful context - I would have been molested.

That's the sick world I grew up in. My parents did what they could to protect me.

Sparrow because you have taken the absolute view that no clothing and only behaviour is ever sexual of course you cannot understand appropriate clothing for appropriate levels of maturity. It absolutely stands to reason that you cannot understand it.

koynaa I lived in a similar Asian culture as a non native for a while. The place had a lot of charm, the constant ongoing harassment of women was definitely not part of that charm. I can only imagine that it was that bad here in the not to distant past so I guess there has been some progress on the issue I am looking forward to it not ever being an issue again but I fear we have a long way to go before we get to the point where boys and men absolutely know they will not get away with these behaviours.

The statement that it's never appropriate for a 13 year old to dress in a way that attracts attention makes no sense. I was wolf whistled while wearing my school uniform at 13. It's not something I had control over. Boys and men will foist their attention on girls no matter what they're wearing.

While that's true, it is also true that if you wear baggy clothes and there is someone who wears more revealing clothes, you have a chance at getting away because they will target her.

It is not nice, but I can see why parents would prefer for the males to molest some other girl who is not their daughter.

Yes a 13 year old in a normal school uniform will probably get some hassle.
A 13 year old in revealing, "sexy" clothes will, possibly, get additional, or different, hassle.

None of it is right or acceptable.

But I want to protect my child from at least that second type of potential hassle, if I can't prevent the inevitable first type.

And the thing is when we do finally (hopefully)develop into a world where my child does not get hassle for dressing like Miley Cyrus is a 'Wrecking Ball' video, I still don't want my daughter to feel that it is liberating to be able to dress like that while men and boys get to wear comfortable, practical and fashionable clothing. That would be complete progress in my view.

Sparrow, you're right, tight-fitting clothing does not make men rape women. Rapists rape women. However, due to entrenched misogynistic attitudes, I think the young woman in bum-revealing shorts has poorer chances of seeing her rapist convicted, and I think it's a poor show to only mention the former.

Anyway, I wouldn't want my (hypothetical) 13 year old looking 16 at parties and being approached by 17 year olds either, and it has nothing to do with feeling sorry for the boys.

I wouldn't want my 13 year old son to be mistaken for over 18 and given the hard sell by the army recruitment stall in town, or to be mistaken for over 18 if he ended up at a bookmakers. Must that also be only because I'm worried about the feelings of the army officer or the bloke in the betting office?

I simply don't want my 13 year old to have to negotiate social interactions of adult complexity, and end up in the awkward position of telling people no. Because it is awkward- I know it's awkward because I am a woman and therefore I have to turn blokes down occasionally, not knowing how they're going to take it.

Like it or lump it (I mostly lump it), clothes aren't just clothes. If I wear bright red, it bring out my spots and I look like I'm dying from something. If I dress to accentuate my figure, my friends and family will think I look nice. However, so will other people, and there will be a sharp uptick in the number of approaches I get from drunk men on the number 10 in the evening. As an adult with an adult's social skills, I like to think I can recognise sexual advances early in the conversation and steer us off with grace and dignity.

There's nothing feminist about letting a 13 year old girl go out looking older in clubbing-type clothes and leaving her to work out how to turn down totally unexpected advances from strangers without embarrassment. Is it feminist to let your young daughter choose to wear an Elsa dress to go swimming instead of a swimming costume?

I certainly wouldn't let her work it out for herself why it was a bad idea, and nor would the lifeguards.

Where do I draw the line, what age should I let her chose how to dress?

OP, as your DD is 13, you have some, if not total control over the clothes she owns. I think that is the point where you draw the line. After that, by all means advise her as to the wisdom of next to nothing on cold days, but let her experiment with the clothes she has. There will be times that you think she looks older than she is. There will be times that she will look ridiculous.

I think it's better to be like "you look lovely" and then be there to listen to her as she works things out for herself.

'I wouldn't want my 13 year old son to be mistaken for over 18 and given the hard sell by the army recruitment stall in town, or to be mistaken for over 18 if he ended up at a bookmakers. Must that also be only because I'm worried about the feelings of the army officer or the bloke in the betting office?'

What total bollocks.

'Is it feminist to let your young daughter choose to wear an Elsa dress to go swimming instead of a swimming costume?

I certainly wouldn't let her work it out for herself why it was a bad idea, and nor would the lifeguards.'

Again what total and utter bollocks. Swimming in a big dress could cause a child to drown - it creates actual physical danger. Plus the child involved is presumably not a teenager. The comparison makes no sense unless you think shorts are dangerous?

I wouldn't want my 13 year old son to be mistaken for over 18 and given the hard sell by the army recruitment stall in town, or to be mistaken for over 18 if he ended up at a bookmakers.

You're going to have to choose better examples of why you wish to make your daughter dress to your ideas of appropriate dress.

Your 13 year old wouldn't be given the hard sell because she would simply say that she was 13 and they would back off, even though she would have had to go and ask questions of them in the first place. Plus it seems you have never heard of Challenge 21 or Challenge 25, which are now the benchmarks that trading standards use to test the sale of age restricted products. Unless you're saying that you 13 year old looks over 21/25?