13 year old dd accused me of not being a feminist

[HenryIX]

Dd went to a party last night. She came downstairs dressed in tiny cut off shorts. She has worn these often, with thick tights underneath. Last night she did not have the tights on.
It was cold last night, but also, she was dressed like a 17 year old, not a just turned 13 year old.
My first words, without thinking were ' You aren't going out dressed like that!'

So it got me thinking, I do believe a woman should be able to dress as she wants. But she is not a woman, she is a child.
Where do I draw the line, what age should I let her choose how to dress?
And more importantly, what do I say to her when she wakes up today and is grumpy that I didn't let her wear what she wanted?

Clothes aren't sexual well we are a mile apart on that an anorak = thigh high boots. A polo neck = a corset.

Do you have a teen Sparrow?

It's not about when you guide them, it's about how you guide them. At what age do you tell a girl her legs are sexual and should be covered up MrsJayy? Is it the same age at which Muslim girls start wearing headscarves? 8? 9? 10?

I don't have a teen.

This isn't about legs its about her bum on show the op wasnt talking about her legs fgs thats quite a jump from bum cheeks to headscarves

Oh dear god, I didn't want to promote such a heated debate, I was just thinking out loud and thinking about what I felt and why. To make it clear, dd is not sexualized at all, nor are her clothes. She is still very much a child, only just turned 13.

Do you have any concerns about the early sexualisation of children Sparrow? How does this sexualisation manifest for you?

The issue is that it's seen as sexual behaviour. Equally uncovered hair is seen by some to be sexual. IMO there's no real difference - girls are being told their bodies are sexual objects that must be covered.

I didn't mean to insinuate your dd was sexualised Henry sorry that isnt what I am meaning

Thanks MrsJayy.

No I don't think it is that the 13 year old is sexualised Sparrow it is that a 13 year old is emulating dressing from an adult woman who is a sexual being and often is interested in using a look to attract attention. A 13 year old has no such agenda but when Beyoncé (Jesus I am so out of touch) does this she wants to be the same.

I see the Burkini and brazialian thong bikini as 2 sides of the same patriarchical coin. Others see the bikini as liberated and the Burkini as male repression.

Sorry Henry x posted. The conversation has grown legs. I definitely did not get any impression that your dd is sexuslised.

I don't really think it helps to think of two categories: fully fledged woman and child. 13 is a child legally, but hardly the same in terms of decision-making as a 3 year old, and that's why things such as the Fraser guidelines are used to allow early teens to make decisions in healthcare and contraception, and why courts ask children of this age who they would like to live with. It's not quite the same as deciding to wear cut off jeans, but obviously there's an inbetween bit where you start to resemble an adult woman but are still legally a child which is difficult to negotiate.

I don't have the answer, I would have said (and I have girls of this age)- that's not an ok outfit, you can't go out on a school night, find something else to wear! I think often at this age they are pushing at boundaries, perhaps curious to find out what happens if you look 17, so it's fine to push back and you don't always have to have a fully worked out reason to do so (I think things like legs are natural are red herrings, the Op's dd wasn't out trying to get some Vitamin D, was she?)

What does happen if you look 17 Bounty?

People assume you are 17 obviously

Yes I agree Bounty it is that in between age where they are supposed to push boundaries but it is bloody difficult to establish what those boundaries should be.

People may think you are of the legal age to have sex and may approach you at a party on that basis, they may talk to you in a way that is appropriate for older teens, they may assume you are mature enough to make decisions about drugs/drink and other things. I was well-equipped to make those decisions (I felt) at 17/18, not at 13.

Thank you for your post Bounty I am not able to find the right words sometimes but yes what you said

I think Sparrow is raising some very good points.

"...there's an inbetween bit where you start to resemble an adult woman but are still legally a child which is difficult to negotiate." Is there an in between bit for boys that is difficult to negotiate? Why is it difficult to negotiate for girls? Why do 13 yr old girls have to be involved in any kind of negotiation? Whose behaviour are we really worried about here and why is it up to a 13 yr old girl to manage that behaviour?

Oh and conversations around whether 13 yr old boys look 17 never happen. It isn't generally an issue if they do or don't.

scallops it's quite obvious why, at my dd's school, the 12/13 year old boys are two or three years off puberty, growth spurts, spots and so forth. Many of the girls have gone through puberty, have periods, are adult height and have adult women figures, albeit not all of them. Some have had large breasts, for example, since 10! Girls and boys at this age are not well-matched in their emotional or physical development. My dd looks, when dressed up to go out (which of course I let her do, who doesn't like to look nice and feel their best), about 17. The boys in her class are a head smaller and like little boys. It's a hard age for some girls, and of course in a world of sexualized women and very narrowly defined womanhood (let's not get onto sexuality but that throws even more into the mix), this is a tricky time. I think it then gets easier for girls, and for many boys, that 14-19 patch is really hard for similar reasons. That's just my theory anyway, having seen my dds and their boy friends.

Not so many13 year old boys look like they are 17. And, if they do, I do think it is a big issue, I have a friend who had a son who suddenly grew to 6 foot 4 aged 14 and it was a nightmare for her to help him as he started hanging out with an older crowd, smoking cannabis etc. Children who look older and less like children have a harder time, there's lots of evidence that if you hit puberty earlier you are more likely to have sex earlier and unprotected sex as well.

I do think though that women are exposed to a lot more messages around appearance and looks conformity, but I don't think the answer to that is to say wear what you like, do what you like, you are still a child.

I now contradict myself, though, as I do let my girls wear make-up (they are not that interested) and short shorts if they think it's fine! I don't try to prevent my 12/13 year old looking older by making her wear younger clothes, I try to help her reflect on her own look, which she manages just fine.

The answer to all of your questions Scallop is not having 13 years feeling they are emancipated by wearing what Rihanna or Beyoncé wear to dress provocatively. It is the same as women wearing thong bikinis feeling that wearing a burkini subjugates a woman. Pretending that there is not a patriarchical reason for women feeling the need to wear thong bikinis is delusional.

Bounty I think you contradict yourself precisely because it is that grey area. The same reason why the OP is happy that a pair of tights works with short shorts on a 13 year old. They are part of the way along the journey but not fully there.