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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

13 year old dd accused me of not being a feminist

225 replies

HenryIX · 30/10/2016 08:16

Dd went to a party last night. She came downstairs dressed in tiny cut off shorts. She has worn these often, with thick tights underneath. Last night she did not have the tights on.
It was cold last night, but also, she was dressed like a 17 year old, not a just turned 13 year old.
My first words, without thinking were ' You aren't going out dressed like that!'

So it got me thinking, I do believe a woman should be able to dress as she wants. But she is not a woman, she is a child.
Where do I draw the line, what age should I let her choose how to dress?
And more importantly, what do I say to her when she wakes up today and is grumpy that I didn't let her wear what she wanted?

OP posts:
TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 14:33

I appreciate that Meeep.

TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 14:34

"Do we really want to be teaching today's girls that their bodies are a problem that needs to be covered up?"

Nope.'

So why teach a girl that she can't wear shorts for fear of the reaction her legs might cause?

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2016 14:36

"Fair enough. I don't see much problem with her having to tell people her age, but I understand that you consider it to be a problem (I'm not sure why, really)."

Because I don't want her to have to deal with perfectly legitimate "advances" from a boy who thinks she is older than she is because she is dressing like a 16 year old Because there is involving a 13 year old in sexually charged situations. Which is inappropriate for her age.

TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 14:39

Seriously Bertrand? Where on earth is a 13 year old going to be meeting all these 17 year olds who make 'advances' on her? And if he's a lovely boy, surely he'll just do the normal thing and just, you know, talk to her???

HummusForBreakfast · 02/11/2016 14:42

I'm a mum with two ds rather than a dd so no direct experience as mum about that.
However I remember well being 13yo, looking older but being relatively immature re sex. My issue wasn't rape but just sexual attention that I didn't know he to handle at all.
So my first reaction would be to tell a 13yo to dress appropriately according to how well she can deal with the unwanted attention.
If she is a 13yo that is able to stand her ground d and has no issue said boy/man to go away then yes she can also probably be more 'visible'. Is she isn't, then maybe being a bit more conservative will help.

HummusForBreakfast · 02/11/2016 14:45

Sparrow as a teen, I actually had quite a few 'offers'. And just talking when I knew he guy was after going out with me, used to make me very uncomfortable. I had no idea how to handle it and my mum wasn't a lot of help there.
I even stopped going to one activity I really really loved because of that.

TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 14:45

'So my first reaction would be to tell a 13yo to dress appropriately according to how well she can deal with the unwanted attention.
If she is a 13yo that is able to stand her ground d and has no issue said boy/man to go away then yes she can also probably be more 'visible'. Is she isn't, then maybe being a bit more conservative will help.'

Is it your view Hummus that clothes are what cause boys and men to harass girls and women?

I agree totally that girls need to be taught to very forcefully tell boys and men that they're not interested in where to go. But girls are not generally taught that - they're taught to be polite, and kind and smiley, which is far more of a problem than the clothes they wear.

TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 14:48

'Sparrow as a teen, I actually had quite a few 'offers'. And just talking when I knew he guy was after going out with me, used to make me very uncomfortable. I had no idea how to handle it and my mum wasn't a lot of help there.
I even stopped going to one activity I really really loved because of that.'

Had that anything to do with the clothes you wore? Or how old you looked? If your mother told you not to wear shorts, would that have helped you?

You weren't given the guidance and support you needed to deal with the problem. But telling you to cover up wouldn't have helped.

My2centsworth · 02/11/2016 14:49

*2cents let me answer your concerns clearly.
The sexualisation of women manifests in the fact that up to a certain age girls can run around happily in whatever they want. Then, at about 8 or 9, adults suddenly start telling them their bodies now need to be covered up, because they are sexual objects. It doesn't matter whether the child has any interest in sex, she must still cover up as others will see her a sexual thing. Women are generally taught this by their parents, and carry it with them their whole lives, then pass it on to their own daughters, as we see very clearly in this thread.

You are the problem, 2cents, because you look at sexualisation in the media and rather than saying 'fuck that' you're saying 'oh well that's the way it is, better teach girls to cover up.*

Don't lay that on me. Many people have tried to make the point Meep put so eloquently to you, about having to live in the real world and there being no Utopia but you completely ignored them. You blaming me and laying this at my door because 6 billion people live in this world and I have to raise a child to be part of it. Society may be we but stop pretending that power starts with me. I have fuck all power to change it.

TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 14:52

As soon as you and all the other women in the world think that way 2cents we might as well just give up. If people have fuck all power to change things, we might as well just give in, eh?

TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 14:56

The women who fought for your right to vote, your right to your own children, your right to property, maternity rights, rights to fair pay, rights not be raped in marriage, every single right that you enjoy today, they were women who didn't say 'I have fuck all power to change it.' They did fight and they did change it, even though on their own, each one of them was just one person, fighting in a world where they had no rights and no voice at all.

My2centsworth · 02/11/2016 15:00

Sparrow you live in a very black and white world. I don't.

I have many battles to fight. I have a disabled child, an ill child, boys who are growing up in a sexualised world and I want them to be good men, girls growing up in a sexualised world. Sure 6 billion people's problems should fall to me. I have wasted an entire day and night on this and I have to do some work. It has been a pleasure.

TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 15:02

I never at any point said 6 billion people's problems should fall to you. What I've said is that people can and do change the world. If you can't or don't want to do that, that's fine. But other people are trying to do it, so that your children and grandchildren can benefit.

TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 15:10

Can I just state for the record here that in spite of being called a 'man-hater' more than once in my lifetime, I do not see 17 year old boys as being any sort of threat to 13 year old girls who wear shorts. The vast majority of 17 year old boys are lovely people who will look for someone their own age and treat them with respect.
The people who are a threat to 13 year old girls are the people who generally commit sexual crimes against minors - relatives such as dads and uncles, friends of the family, babysitters, paedophiles who pose as younger people online. Those crimes have nothing to do with how old a girl looks and everything to do with the fact that those people are sexual predators.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2016 15:16

" I do not see 17 year old boys as being any sort of threat to 13 year old girls who wear shorts. The vast majority of 17 year old boys are lovely people who will look for someone their own age and treat them with respect"

I agree. Your point?

MrsJayy · 02/11/2016 15:27

You seem to be missing the point of the thread and turning it into a sexual predator and rapist thread that really is not the point of it and I think i need to leave the thread because im wasting energy trying to justify my words

TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 15:28

My point is that preventing girls from wearing shorts for fear of the reaction of 17 year old boys is nonsensical.

MarianneSolong · 02/11/2016 15:29

I think this study is quite interesting. We're very clear that older men having relationships with teenagers - especially those under the age of consent - is wrong. We are much less clear about what happens in relationships between teenagers. Things can go very wrong.

www.nspcc.org.uk/globalassets/documents/research-reports/partner-exploitation-violence-teenage-intimate-relationships-summary.pdf

Batteriesallgone · 02/11/2016 15:32

Meep said what I was trying to about 'coding' much more eloquently that I could. But I also take issue with the idea that up to 8/9 year old girls can wear what they like - like I said about preschoolers, from as soon as we teach our children to dress themselves we teach them to cover their private areas.

Thats just how it is. Society isn't naturist.

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2016 15:39

"My point is that preventing girls from wearing shorts for fear of the reaction of 17 year old boys is nonsensical."
One last try. It is not about wearing shorts. It is about dressing in a style of an older teenager at the age of 13.
And it is not a "fear" of the reaction of 17 year old boys. But I really can't be arsed to explain again- because you are just refusing to listen.

Mishaps · 02/11/2016 15:49

Well - it isn't about wearing shorts. This lass was dressed in a garment that exposed her bum cheeks. If we were to do that, we would be regarded as sending out a sexual signal - we can make the choice to do that in the full knowledge that this was what we were doing and that we knew how to handle the situation.

This is not the case with a 13 year old girl, who is insufficiently mature to know that it might be seen as a sexual signal, or to deal with the possible consequences.

We cannot have it both ways - if we wear clothes that are sending out a sexual signal, then we cannot complain if the relevant response if forthcoming; we cannot blame that on the men.

TheSparrowhawk · 02/11/2016 15:59

Can you clarify what you mean by the 'relevant response' Mishaps?

BertrandRussell · 02/11/2016 16:02

Well, we can certainly blame the men if they don't immediately and cheerfully take no for an answer.

I just don't want my 13 year old to do anything which means she has to say no. What is appropriate for 16 is not appropriate for 13.

pontificationcentral · 02/11/2016 16:04

I have a 13yo girl, a 14yo boy, and a 16yo girl. I also have a 17yo girl living here. The older girls understand about performing femininity, and performing sexuality. They know what messages they are sending (in the eyes of the world, not me) if they choose to wear daisy Dukes with their arses hanging out. These are usually accompanied by duck pouts that would put Candace off BakeOff to shame, and a wee top and squeezing together your tits so you look like a 90s wonderbra ad. The message that women are to be ogled at, and their worth judged by just how fuckable they appear is not news to anyone who lives in the twenty first century.

Yes, I applaud grown women who choose to fuck with this message. To show off their bodies and get righteously angry at anyone who treats them like an object. No woman should be treated like a sex object because she has her legs, arse or tits on display. And frankly, it goes without saying that no one gets raped because of whatever bits of body they happen to have hanging out at any given time.

But I know that there is a world of difference between the reaction I get from passers-by, men in vans, construction workers, or frankly anyone, in my mid40's sensible mom jeans and sweater, than any female younger than 30 in arse-cheek shorts. The gals here are all dancers - they aren't prudes about their bodies - they are strong powerful machines that they use in their art, and they frequently run about in skintight leotards, hot pants, sequins, and full stage make-up (no, I had never really considered putting false eyelashes on a 13yo either, but it's perfectly normal round here). These are all full on sensible teenage girls who are not advertising their bodies as fuck objects. But if they go out on the street like that, no one is clapping and saying 'you gals were awesome', they get reams of unwanted attention from arsehats who, frankly, see them as fuck objects.
Is this their problem? I mean, clearly, it's society's problem - it's not their fault that the entire social convention dictates that 'young woman in full slap with her arse out WANTS YOU TO LOOK AT HER' and apparently, wants you to leer, remember all the porn you watched last night, and pass comment on her arse and tits.
But really, it IS my daughter's problem. The reality of the patriarchy means that women are still objectified, and if they dress with their body parts hanging out, society assumes they are doing it because they want the attention. At 13, girls have got the message that THIS is what they are supposed to do - they are supposed to dress provocatively, in tight revealing clothing - they see their role models doing it every day, and the fashion mags advising them - but they have not yet deconstructed why this is problematic. Once they understand, and are prepared to backlash against the full weight of society that tells them they are inviting sexualised attention (which is their job - clever society that we train girls to hang their arses out and judge themselves by how fuckable they are and then complain when they do) it is up to them how they dress.
I actually don't care what my kids wear. But I care if they do not fully understand why young girls are taught to wear teeny tiny shorts and their male equivalents aren't. And I care if they are following the 'you must dress sexy' diktats of the patriarchy without deconstructing for themselves whether they actually want to, or whether they just feel pressured to in order to conform (back to shaving legs again).
Part of parenting teenagers is enabling them to make their own choices. In letting 13yo girls go out without any understanding how these choices will be read by society, and whether they understand the choices they are making, we are doing them a disservice. Of course we don't want to prematurely sexualise children (prematurely being redundant, obvs) but most feminists understand the concept that making choices in a vacuum isn't free choice. Once you understand that you will be vilified if you don't shave your legs, it's up to you. Once you understand that you will be treated as a fuck object in teeny tiny shorts, it's up to you. Subvert away. And I applaud you. Hopefully society will change over time.
And frankly, this whole thread makes me lol. Please someone post a whole load of those hairy arsed blokes wearing arse shorts to consolidate the fact that no teen boy is ever going to be treated in the same way as a teen girl for wearing them, and the fact that equality was even raised as an argument in this thread is beyond ridiculous. If anything, it consolidates the fact that they aren't really appropriate for anyone!!

MorrisZapp · 02/11/2016 16:04

I'm glad I don't have a teenage daughter. Throughout recent history, almost all men's fashion has been variants on comfortable trousers, shorts, t-shirts and sweaters. Boys almost can't dress 'inappropriately'.

Since the 90s, womens fashion has become ever more sexual, and younger kids wanting to look trendy or cool will end up looking sexually available.

I'm a massive feminist but no way on this earth would I be trying to solve patriarchy by allowing a young girl to dress in clothes that I know will provoke comments and stares on the grounds that the commenters and starers are wrong.

I know they're wrong. But I know they exist, and I don't want a girls entry into that sad reality to come any earlier to her than it has to.

I had huge boobs from age thirteen. I know of what I speak.