13 year old dd accused me of not being a feminist

[HenryIX]

Dd went to a party last night. She came downstairs dressed in tiny cut off shorts. She has worn these often, with thick tights underneath. Last night she did not have the tights on.
It was cold last night, but also, she was dressed like a 17 year old, not a just turned 13 year old.
My first words, without thinking were ' You aren't going out dressed like that!'

So it got me thinking, I do believe a woman should be able to dress as she wants. But she is not a woman, she is a child.
Where do I draw the line, what age should I let her choose how to dress?
And more importantly, what do I say to her when she wakes up today and is grumpy that I didn't let her wear what she wanted?

My2cents yes you are right, that's why it's a process of making your own judgement, then trying to see your child's point of view (even if they do look like they are much older) then deciding when to put your foot down and when to relax a little. It's not an exact science, and I don't think the OP got it wrong, it's all a learning curve for both of you.

I also agree with not over-policing girls/womens appearance, although in our house some of it is centred on cleanliness and washing hair as much as clothing, and my friends with boys say that's the same. I may over-interfere on that through fear of social judgement. I'm not very good with the 'natural consequences' approach for that type of thing!

I also agree with not over-policing girls/womens appearance

Absolutely it is the balance between trying to counter this sexualised world that is all around them and letting them find their path. I actually do have huge concerns about the effect of this hypersexuslised society for my son too but I have some time with him.

My questions were intended to highlight the different messages we send our 13 yr old children depending on whether they are girls or boys. We do not spend our time having conversations about what boys wear to go out. We do not even have conversations about how to talk to our boys about not feeding into the misogynistic sexualised culture that women face. What we talk about is how to police 13 yr old girls behaviour.

And you are right about contradicting yourself on this. We are teaching girls from an early age what a difficult line they have to walk and as such feeding into the sexualised culture.

The OP says her daughter isn't sexualised, 2cents. Is policing what 13 yr old girls wear, the way forward with combatting the patriarchy on this?

Bounty, I think a 13 year old being at a party with 17 year olds who proposition her for sex is far more of an issue than her wearing shorts. The OP made no mention of older teenagers.

I'm curious, what clothes should boys be prevented from wearing so that they don't get propositioned for sex?

God Scallops I want to live in your world where I don't have to advise my daughters about the world they actually lives in versus the one I wish they lived in. Again I do not see dressing in an adult way as in any way emancipating for them.

There is a huge body of work to do on our son's in relation to the sexualised world we live in, an unquestioned rape culture, how to treat girls and then women but it is not what the OP is about.

The other comment about boys clothes makes no sense.

Boys and men dress typically in a small number of different 'uniforms', a suit, sportswear, jeans, t-shirts/shirts/sweaters. Other that the underpants on show trend there is very little in the current trend designed specifically to accentuate the male bodies sexually in the same way female clothes are designed. Fight the notion that women are objectified by the fashion industry (mostly controlled by men) don't defend it and pretend there is no issue for how young girls are dressing in a more sexualised manner these days because of it.

"There is a huge body of work to do on our son's in relation to the sexualised world we live in, an unquestioned rape culture, how to treat girls and then women but it is not what the OP is about."

I agree. But any suggestion that we need to rethink how we raise our boys is usually greeted with howls of outrage

So interesting. Glad I didn't have this with my teenage daughter but it's not just about that, is it.

Placemark.

I entirely agree 2cents. But if I had said that straight off the bat I would have had to deal with all sorts of nonsense like 'I fear for my sons'

The fact is, as demonstrated by this thread, our girls are growing up in a world where woman=sex, so that a boy who looks like a man is unremarkable, but a girl who looks like a woman is 'sending the wrong signal' - the signal being that she wants sex. No matter whether she's a child or has any interest in sex, her legs still advertise what she's for.

At no point have I defended the fashion industry. I have been defending young girls who I think don't deserve to be told lies. Do not tell a girl that covering herself up will help prevent rape - it is not true

To add, clothes do not make anyone into a sexual being, they do not invite sex. They are clothes.

Can I also add that it's entirely irrelevant what 'signal' a child sends with her clothes. The idea that a 13 year old should be careful of 'signals' (why, so she doesn't get raped?) is absolutely abhorrent to me. In any case it doesn't matter what signals she sends, it makes no difference to whether someone will rape her. The difference it'll make is how much people will blame her for the rape.

I suppose my issue with 13 year olds dressing older is that people will think she is older. Especially if she is taller and has a more mature face.

What she wears will have no effect on whether she is raped. But it may have an impact on whether and older boy looks at her and thinks she is 16/17 and tries to persuade her to sleep with him. So statutory rape. Whilst she is still not at fault in this situation, if dressing age appropriately allows people to realise her actual age, she may get less (un)wanted attention at a party and less pressure to be in a situation that she doesn't want or will later come to regret.

Why would a 13 year old be at a party with 17 year olds?

If a 17 year old boy thinks he is talking to a 16 year old girl, sex may be on the table. From his perspective that would be consensual. If the girl looks 13 then he would know he could not have her consent.
The ones who don't care about consent won't care how old she looks.
The OP won't be told if older ones are at the party, her dd may not know in advance either.
Having just watched the documentary Audrie and Daisy I am approaching this by never letting my dcs leave the house not helpful I know

And frankly if you honestly think clothes are the key thing in helping your teenager to navigate social situations (rather than teaching her how to turn down the advances of a 17 year old, or simply just to say 'I'm 13') then you seriously need to rethink.

Mistress, what prevents these 17 year old from asking a girl's age?

At 13, I would have been flattered to be approached by a 17 year old.

How exactly would you suggest that I approach this with my DD when the time comes? Her dad telling her all of the horror stories he comes across as a PC may do the trick or she will always think it would never happen to her.

It's fine to be flattered, nothing wrong with that. A nice 17 year old will find out soon enough she's 13 and back off. A not so nice 17 year old won't care what she's wearing.

As for approaching it, how about the truth?

And if she says "I'm 16"?

What difference will clothes make to that?

Anyone can lie, regardless of whether they're wearing shorts or not.

What I want to know is how 13 year old are ending up at parties with 17 year olds that don't know them, without adult supervision?

I was exploited sexually in my early teens for exactly the reasons Bounty describes. I was far too innocent about how men saw me and my clothing. I certainly would spell out the issues if I'd had a DD, because some men don't give a shit whether you're 13 or 35. If you've got nice tits - or a nice arse - that's all they see.

Because if she is dressed like a 16yo, he might be inclined to believe her. If she's dressed like she is 13, he might not.