13 year old dd accused me of not being a feminist

[HenryIX]

Dd went to a party last night. She came downstairs dressed in tiny cut off shorts. She has worn these often, with thick tights underneath. Last night she did not have the tights on.
It was cold last night, but also, she was dressed like a 17 year old, not a just turned 13 year old.
My first words, without thinking were ' You aren't going out dressed like that!'

So it got me thinking, I do believe a woman should be able to dress as she wants. But she is not a woman, she is a child.
Where do I draw the line, what age should I let her choose how to dress?
And more importantly, what do I say to her when she wakes up today and is grumpy that I didn't let her wear what she wanted?

Whew thread has moved on. Sparrow I totally agree with you but also think no one should show their arse in public. Because decency. Same as I think boys shouldn't wear those baggy jeans that show bum.

I'm hugely skeptical that a 13 year old can 'pass' as 17/18 to a 17 year old, a teacher, a bouncer or anyone in fact that spends a lot of time with teenagers. To an old fart like me anyone in the age range of 13-23 that has makeup on and is dressed up looks 16/17/18 because I am now hopeless at judging young people, I'm too jealous of their tiny waists to look properly.

But I remember being 17. I remember having a friend with a 15 year old girlfriend and we all knew. Two years is a lot in maturity terms at that age.

A 17 year old boy coming on to a 13 year old because she's dressed up isn't a nice sweet boy who's confused. That's the rape culture excuse. What he really is, is an abusive coercive older man who can smell vulnerability.

Having read this thread, I think a lot of people have been giving a lot of very confused and/or potentially shifting reasons for why they disagree with a 13-year-old wearing (what I am reading as being) 'bum shorts', and I think TheSparrowhawk is not wrong to have wanted to unravel those reasons, or to have made the points she has made.

Batteries I agree completely with the arse no hanging out and I hate the male underpants thing. I also don't like the general (what I view as patriarchical) sexualisation of female clothing for the benefits of men. I particularly don't like children emulating wearing those types of clothes prematurely.

I resent being told by Sparrow that I personally am sexualising children for saying I don't like the effect this culture has on them.

I have said many times this is not about rape, it is the early sexualisation of children drip fed a popular culture that values women for their sexuality.

Rape is caused by men and boys who rape.

But the nice kind 17 year old might be led astray by the lying, shorts-wearing 13 year old Batteries! It happens all the time!

2cents, I entirely agree that society sexualises women and that is an entirely negative thing. But can you see that by looking at a 13 year old wearing shorts and thinking about the sexual messages that sends, you are totally buying into that sexualisation?

Legs are legs. There is nothing at all sexual about them, they are there for walking. A 13 year old's legs are certainly not about sex. But you've been trained by society to see womanly legs as 'sending out signals' about sex. They are not sending out anything, they're just there. If someone uses bare legs as an excuse to harass a 13 year old, that's their fault, not the fault of the 13 year old, or her legs.

"Bertrand is your concern to protect nice kind 17 year old boys from lying 13 year old girls?"

No. And absolutely nothing I have posted could possibly have led you to believe that it is. Kindly stop being an arsehole.

Batteries how can you say on the one hand I don't like asses hanging out and on the other skin is just skin. Totally inconsistent. We are talking about ass cheek skin here not just shorts.

Legs are legs. There is nothing at all sexual about them, they are there for walking. A 13 year old's legs are certainly not about sex. But you've been trained by society to see womanly legs as 'sending out signals' about sex. They are not sending out anything, they're just there. If someone uses bare legs as an excuse to harass a 13 year old, that's their fault, not the fault of the 13 year old, or her legs

None of this applies we are talking about the child's ass cheeks on show not her legs. You find that distasteful for different reasons than I, but you still find it distasteful.

Admittedly, I only have a step-daughter (also 13) so I may feel differently if she was my biological daughter, however, if my step-daughter was considering going to a party at this time of year wearing hot-pants up her bum I imagine our conversation would go something along these lines:

Me: You look lovely, but why are you wearing hot-pants? It’s Autumn and your bum is going to freeze.

Her: Because I like them.

Me: Why? They’re not comfortable to wear and it’s too cold for them.

Her: But they look good.

Me: Your jeans look good too…

Her: I just want to wear them!

Me: Have a think about why you want to wear hot-pants up your bum in Autumn. Why would you want to make yourself uncomfortable and cold just to look ‘good’?

Fortunately, this fictional conversation probably wouldn’t ever happen because my step-daughter is more of a hoodies and football type of girl. But the point still stands.
Why aren’t we teaching girls to reflect on the reasons why they want to wear clothes that, for want of a better phrase, let it all hang out?

Shorts in summer, fair enough. Shorts in the colder months… not so much. It isn’t about avoiding ‘sending signals to men’, it’s about teaching girls that there’s more to life than needlessly sacrificing your own comfort and objectifying yourself simply because that’s what society tells us we should be doing (from an increasingly young age.)

Incidentally, the above could be applied to women of all ages.

Sorry I thought that reply was to Batteries

You find that distasteful for different reasons than I, but you still find it distasteful

Obviously you did not say that Sparrow did.

Sparrow you recognise society sexualises women. Can you give an example of how that manifests? For me it is though media, music videos, fashion. That then permeates down to children who try to emulate adults.

Totally I have consistently used this argument throughout this thread but Sparrow has now 3 times accused me of being the one with the problem while now doing some bizarre thing of actually acknowledging the problem actually exists but suggesting that if I just let my child mindlessly follow current pop culture somehow that will change the trend because it was after all only me with the problem.

I think you try to give children guidance to help them survive and cope in an imperfect world - until they reach the point where they're fully independent and have to do it for themselves.

It isn't about there being clear lines about which body parts are sexual/non-sexual, decent/indecent.

Clothing has more than one potential meaning, depending on the context. (Pyjamas in bed. Pyjamas on the school run.)

And here's some music.

2cents it is a hard point to answer. I remember wearing bikinis a lot on non-swim occasions as a teenager because they're just clothes that are sometimes appropriate right? So should always be?

To me as an adult, bum showing is too close to nudity, which as a culture We Don't Do. Nothing to do with rape or sex, not really, just those silly group rules that apply much like how people feel accountants and lawyers ought to wear suits.

An adult is mature enough to reject these rules and face the judgement (and lets face it, it's judgey attitudes that's the issue not a perceived increased risk of rape). A child is not, so shouldn't be allowed to break the rules. IMO.

13 year old girls might want to dress in sexualised clothes, thigh high stiletto boots, push-up corsets, and shorts showing their bums, for example.

I would not be happy for my DD to do so. Let me think aloud about why.

It's not because I think teenage girls invite rape in those clothes, or that there is something intrinsically sexual about their legs.

It's because society tells us all the time that those sorts of clothes have a meaning; that the wearer is a (strongly/hyper) sexual being. You will see the images portraying this in all sorts of media, music videos, pornography etc.
The message is also that this is how the women get their worth, their power, through their sexuality.

An innocent 13 year old may not have analysed all this.

But to everyone else who sees that uniform, there's a clear message - sexuality.

Why deny that some clothes are seen as sexual?

Rapists rape because they're rapists.

But a 13 year old in sexualised clothing will be coded by others as... Stupid? Worth less? Not worth looking out for? A target for grooming? Not looked after by her parents, so vulnerable? A bad kid? Off the rails? Likely to drink/be drunk? Trying to seem older? Troubled? More likely to agree to consensual sex? A risk taker?

Sexualised clothing gives all sorts of messages that we perhaps wish it didn't, but, in this world, it does. Unfortunately there are always some people who will want to exploit others. Many of those messages could read as an invite to them.

It's not the same for boys as girls, because men and women are treated completely differently in society, about their sexuality! Would I think it appropriate for a 13 year old boy to wear tight shorts showing his bum cheeks? Well no. But who is going to think about wearing them? It's far more possible that a 13 year old girl would than a 13 year old boy! So that's who you end up having the conversation about.

'I don't want my 13 year old dd to be in a position where she has to point out repeatedly that despite appearances to the contrary, she is 13. I don't want her to look like a 16 year old. I want her to be dressing and acting in a way appropriate to her age. I do not want her in a position where lovely, nice, gentle, kind 17 year old boys who absolutely take no for an answer might think she is 16.'

Bertrand this ^ is a direct quote of what you said. You said you do not want her in a position where 17 year old boys might think she is 16. So you are concerned about boys being fooled. Obviously all he needs to do is to ask her her age - doesn't he? Others have raised the possibility that she'll lie. Are you worried about lying 13 year olds fooling 17 year olds?

'But a 13 year old in sexualised clothing will be coded by others as... Stupid? Worth less? Not worth looking out for? A target for grooming? Not looked after by her parents, so vulnerable? A bad kid? Off the rails? Likely to drink/be drunk? Trying to seem older? Troubled? More likely to agree to consensual sex? A risk taker?'

This may be the case. Do you then teach your child to dress according to the misogynistic attitudes of others?

Batteries we don't do bums as a culture for the same reason we don't do breasts. sSociety has linked bums and breasts on display as a sexual thing. Even when we cover nothing else up (a la your bikini example) we typically cover up bums and breasts.

'Sparrow you recognise society sexualises women. Can you give an example of how that manifests? For me it is though media, music videos, fashion. That then permeates down to children who try to emulate adults.

Totally I have consistently used this argument throughout this thread but Sparrow has now 3 times accused me of being the one with the problem while now doing some bizarre thing of actually acknowledging the problem actually exists but suggesting that if I just let my child mindlessly follow current pop culture somehow that will change the trend because it was after all only me with the problem.'

2cents let me answer your concerns clearly.
The sexualisation of women manifests in the fact that up to a certain age girls can run around happily in whatever they want. Then, at about 8 or 9, adults suddenly start telling them their bodies now need to be covered up, because they are sexual objects. It doesn't matter whether the child has any interest in sex, she must still cover up as others will see her a sexual thing. Women are generally taught this by their parents, and carry it with them their whole lives, then pass it on to their own daughters, as we see very clearly in this thread.

You are the problem, 2cents, because you look at sexualisation in the media and rather than saying 'fuck that' you're saying 'oh well that's the way it is, better teach girls to cover up.'

"Are you worried about lying 13 year olds fooling 17 year olds?"

No. Because otherwise I would have said so. Rather than saying I don't want my 13 year old having to repeatedly tell said 17 year olds that she is only 13. Because she is dressed a way appropriate to 16 year olds, not 13 year olds.

Sparrow you on the one hand say don't influence your child's dress at all and on the other hand acknowledge that society is doing it via popular culture. Our job as parents is to push back against that.

Sparrow you unfairly paraphrased Bertrand's post. There is not much she can do about it because you will continue to completely ignore anyone's actual posts and put forward some bizarre misrepresentation in question format ad nauseum.

To add, 'society' isn't some powerful force out there that we can do nothing about. We are society. We give the next generation the values they will take forward to their own children.

Do we really want to be teaching today's girls that their bodies are a problem that needs to be covered up? Or do we want to have real conversations with them about the world they're living in and the world they can create for their own daughters (which we seem so badly to have failed to create for them).

'Sparrow you on the one hand say don't influence your child's dress at all and on the other hand acknowledge that society is doing it via popular culture. Our job as parents is to push back against that.'

Yes, our job is to push back against that, not by saying to girls that they should cover up their legs. We push back against it by saying that wearing clothes isn't a crime and a girl can wear what she likes. If someone thinks she's older, then they can ask her what age she is. If someone thinks she's a slut, then they can fuck the fuck off.

Yes I completely teach my child to dress according to the misogynistic attitudes of others because I'm not going to use her as a lesson to the world on how to be better and different. That's too big a burden for any child to bear. It isn't her job.
Same reason as why I shave my legs, and wear make-up every day kind of. The world is shit a lot of the time to women. But if you don't want negative attention it's safer to conform to some extent.
I'm not taking on the work of changing the world, it's difficult enough to live in it.
I would never ask a 13 year old to take on that role!

'I don't want my 13 year old having to repeatedly tell said 17 year olds that she is only 13. Because she is dressed a way appropriate to 16 year olds, not 13 year olds.'

Fair enough. I don't see much problem with her having to tell people her age, but I understand that you consider it to be a problem (I'm not sure why, really).

"Do we really want to be teaching today's girls that their bodies are a problem that needs to be covered up?"

Nope.

'Yes I completely teach my child to dress according to the misogynistic attitudes of others because I'm not going to use her as a lesson to the world on how to be better and different. That's too big a burden for any child to bear. It isn't her job.
Same reason as why I shave my legs, and wear make-up every day kind of. The world is shit a lot of the time to women. But if you don't want negative attention it's safer to conform to some extent.
I'm not taking on the work of changing the world, it's difficult enough to live in it.
I would never ask a 13 year old to take on that role!'

A very honest answer. I appreciate the Meeep. But I find it really sad that we are still in this position.