Trans in children's and young people's services

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

• trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
• children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
• if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
• children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
• children should learn about trans from an early age
• all school toilets should be gender-neutral
• boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
• single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
• terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

• teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
• being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
• being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
• having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
• being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
• being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
• raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

I don't see how 'feel like a girl/a woman' is a testable scientific proposition. Surely it would be like trying to test whether someone genuinely has religious beliefs.

Hmm. Interesting because another trans poster on here has said she had no psychological support at all, just the "live two years as a woman" thing.
I dip in and out of the third way trans blogs and they dig very deep into psychological support to trans people, based on their own experience.

This is interesting

thirdwaytrans.com/2015/12/18/social-justice-and-gender-therapy/

This is an intro to the author. thirdwaytrans.com/about-the-author/

Actually the "do you think people are just allowed to transition without loads of therapy?" Should go on the TA bingo card.
Yes I do think that, having seen numerous trans youngsters advised how to buy hormones off the Internet and what to buy. Binders also available so women can present male without any counselling at all.
I'm sure to get SRS on the NHS some counselling is required but the majority of trans people don't do that.

People should try to debunk the findings of researchers

Not exactly how science works.

Debunking research for legitimate reasons (e.g. poor selection criteria, not using blind/double blind selection where appropriate, poor scientific method) is fine.

Debunking it because you don't agree with the outcome isn't (e.g. 'oh, but the candidates could be lying').

Science has this wonderful system where if you find new evidence that contradicts an existing theory, and the correct proof, then it updates itself to follow your thinking.

WPATH has been running since 1979. No-one has disproved it yet.

WPATH is based on science, not religion. You don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong. 600 primary medical professionals agree on it. I'd say that has a pretty strong basis in science.

OP, the way I would put it to colleagues would be that where a child I potentially trans or gay, the job of the professionals is to allow self-realisation to happen at the child's own pace a not to impose current trend thinking on the child. A responsible approach is to act as the brake (so that ramifications can be properly considered) not the accelerator.

This. So much this.

We don't want to stick trans badges on people - far from it. We want people to be sure they are trans first, and ask for the badge. And ideally have a medical professional (e.g. psychiatrist) confirm that first.

Sometimes, this may involve puberty blockers (that is, in effect, part of the brake).

Oh dear. I've heard people say that about the Alpha course and scientific "proof" that God exists.

ATM, people are NOT born with a gender. We are born either male or female.
Gender is bullshit.

Why do you keep going on about religion.
Rad fems aren't coming at this from a religious view.

I, a rad fem, think the trans agenda hurts women because it pushes that gender is something you are born with.

"WPATH has been running since 1979. No-one has disproved it yet."

WPATH is what I suppose one might describe as a professional body. It's very weird to talk about proving or disproving a professional body (discrediting, maybe, but not disproving). Disproving is something you do to theories or scientific models, not groups of scientists espousing those models.

ATM, The goal behind all your arguments appears to be acceptance of being something, whilst knowing you're not. But if we all understand that you're not a women and never can be, how does 'passing' even help? At best it's shockingly superficial and, from what I can tell, merely a source of validation.

However, If it's more than that, is it because it's important to be perceived as a women since you feel women get treated better (or differently)? Do you feel they are more nurtured, put on a pedestal, protected in some way? Can you see how anyone, with even a smidgen of feminism, would disagree vehemently with this?

"We all fully accept that our bodies started out as the wrong gender"

Wrong sex, you mean. Bodies can't have gender. A dead body cannot perform femininity. Bodies are male or female. That is their sex.

ATM - I'm starting to believe that you are deliberately confusing sex and gender in an attempt to gaslight us.

"Of course we can't change our biological sex.... Saying we are still 'male' however devalues that. Saying we have 'XY' chromosomes is completely fine"

But those are exactly the same things. You are XY means that you are male! If you are aware that you can't change your biological sex (which is male), then what exactly is your problem with being told the fact that you are still male?

Yes I do think that, having seen numerous trans youngsters advised how to buy hormones off the Internet and what to buy.

I advocate against this all the time. Self-medding is a dangerous practice, and half the online guides are written by idiots with no basis in medical fact (we don't need to take progesterone at all, it doesn't 'make your boobs bigger').

I advocate talking to your GP and getting bridging hormones as they will do the correct evaluation to check you aren't going to make things worse by taking them (e.g. hypertension, liver function, comorbid mental health issues).

Randomly buying pills off the internet is just ludicrous.

Binders also available so women can present male without any counselling at all.

Binders are a controversial topic for FtM's - as there are a lot of risks with prolonged usage. But selling them isn't illegal (corsetry is still widely used and does similar things to the human body!).

There should be more information made available about the risks (although there is a lot out there). But this is still personal choice and trying to restrict access to them is impinging on your right to gender presentation.

I'm sure to get SRS on the NHS some counselling is required but the majority of trans people don't do that.

1-2 years real life experience, after passing through the gatekeeper process fully that requires two independent clinicians and various other sign offs. Most of those have some form of counselling, either NHS based or external.

I think that making the trans agenda work on "having transwomen accepted as women and vice versa for transmen" is short sighted and is one of the things that causes peak trans, and unease among people at large. If transwomen were truthful about being gender rebels, men who weren't going to follow the rules, they'd meet a lot less resistance.

Trying to bullshit people that transwomen are biologically female and should be allowed in sex -segregated spaces is where the trans lobby and reality part company. I think transwomen are going to face an uphill struggle to get women to accept them as sisters, particularly as their behaviour is so very often unmistakably male. The sexual preoccupations alone mark transwomen as stereotypically male - and a particular type of male: porn-obsessed, misogynist, patronising, violent. The group they have most in common when you look at online activism is MRAs.

Would that be the WPATH that has on its advisory committee Dr Kelly Winters, whose qualification and background is in engineering?

Dr Winters has no qualification in psychology, psychiatry, paediatrics or any other branch of medicine. Dr Winters' qualification to opine on trans matters is confined to personal experience.

That's the only one I know about. I have no idea who else they have, but that's one of their main spokespeople. So, um...

. But this is still personal choice and trying to restrict access to them is impinging on your right to gender presentation.

Yes. I was rebutting your point that trans people undergo extensive psychological treatment. There is no need to seek psychological treatment when everything requirked for social transition is available without seeing a doctor. Even some aspects of medical transition (cross sex hormones, electrolysis, boob jobs, binders) don't require psychological assessment.
This thread is about trans youth, not people like yourself who have spent many years struggling with gender identity. I don't see any evidence youngsters are getting advised to explore psychological avenues prior to medical ones. In fact it seems more like there is pressure to "accept their authentic self" and move straight into transition.

With you there, Prawn.

I know this isn't the question in the OP, but if sexual preoccupation is so prevalent in the trans community it must have a bearing on what the ideology is pushing for in the first place.

So I'll ask again (what's it been? 6 times?) : ATM, How do we distinguish transwomen who have AGP from those who don't ?

What concerns me the most, OP, though none of it's easy reading, is allowing boys into girl only spaces, particularly girls in care. Has everyone in your profession (apart from dissenters) forgotten all those endless scandals about sexual abuse of children in care? Children who have already been subject to child protection must be the most vulnerable children there are. Who is protecting these girls?

This is starting to remind me of one of those ethics problems about whether you would throw a switch to divert a tram from mowing down four people, if it would then crush two others who hadn't previously been in the way.

If you are aware that you can't change your biological sex (which is male), then what exactly is your problem with being told the fact that you are still male?

Because that's not my gender identity. Which you can't seem to respect.

I know my chromosomes are XY (probably XY, haven't had a karyotype done yet tbh, I do have a few markers for Klienfelter).

I know I was assigned male at birth.

I know I have a lived experience as a man for a period of time, despite being unhappy with massive parts of it and experienced significant gender dysphoria during that period (and failed to seek help when I needed to, quite frankly).

But my gender identity is of a trans woman. Repeatedly referring to me as male disrespects that. I know I'm not male at a biological/chromosomal level - I don't need constantly reminding of that fact.

I just view anyone saying 'but you're male' as going ad hominem. Which just means you are running out of arguments.

Respecting your peers is a fundamental tenet of debate. I've not called anyone a TERF, nor have I attacked anyone personally (although I may have handed out a few badges for dodgy arguments). But other people seem to think it's perfectly ok to insult me.

Male isn't a gender identity!!!!!
Oh good god why can't you understand this? Male is your chromosomal sex. It's not an identity. Nor is female. You can't identify out of being male any more than you can identify out of being a member of the human species.

Prawn - I think that the ways that people currently think are

(i) young women and girls are not at risk from trans / gender variant men / rights of trans trump girls' because they are more oppressed.
(ii) I don't agree with it but I'm not going to say anything.
(iii) How long till payday?

Having said that, the way that care operates is so complex that it is hard to know what is happening. Girls are already raped in social care. Some are trafficked into prostitution. My position is that we need to do something about this bigger picture as well as and as part of making these safe spaces for girls. Trans is just part of the picture, but allowing intact men / boys identifying as girls / women into single-sex (girls') spaces is not the way forward.

Because that's not my gender identity. Which you can't seem to respect.

Someone saying "I'm a man who presents as feminine" would get plenty of respect. Miranda Yardley is very popular on here because Miranda respects women and gets that identity is never going to trump biological sex.

I think I've said this before but the radfem position is that the world would be a better place if there was no such thing as gender identity and everyone could just present however they wanted.

There's also no way for women to tell the difference between harmless transwomen who "just want to pee" and AGPs / pervs who want access to women's spaces. If simply dealing with the violent / pervy ones after they've done something was acceptable, then that principle could equally be applied to all men (many of whom are also harmless). But then segregation of any kind would be pointless.

Why do you need my respect for your gender identity ATM? Don't you think you'd probably be a lot happier if you didn't need me to pretend that I think you're a woman? You could get on with your life as you choose to live it, and forget all about me. Why can't you do that? Why the obsession with trying to force women to believe in you?

ATM can you explain to process by which you were assigned male at birth? Because I've given birth and whilst it was a bit of a blur, I have no recollection of anyone assigned DD with anything. I have explained akready how the baby's sex is noted and recorded at birth. Did something different happen with you?

As for respecting gender - well, that's difficult for me because u have zero respect for an artificial social construct that had been used (in different ways) for centuries to keep women in their place (I don't think it's great for men, either, but far more damaging for women). Zero. None whatsoever. I am regularly shocked that gender hasn't been dumped into the dustbin of social history.

If you choose to put this damaging social construct front and centre in your life, that's up to you. But no-one else has to take any notice of it and you certainly don't get to tell other people that they have to believe in it.

u should be I in my second para

That's why people have drawn the analogy with religion . I am free to believe what I wish and live my life in accordance with those beliefs , as long as I don't iimpinge on anyone else rights .

I don't ask anyone here to " respect " my religious beliefs by saying that they are right . I hope they respect my right to hold them, buts that's different .

You want me and all the other women on this thread to agree with your belief system . And say that we do. And then allow you to act in a way that impinges on our rights.

People GET that you belive your gender identity is female or feminine . We respect your right to hold that view . However, respecting other people's right to hold views isn't that same as agreeing with them.

This seems like such a basic point and yet you have failed to grasp it over and over again .