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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

OP posts:
SomeDyke · 05/10/2016 13:41

Because that's not my gender identity. Which you can't seem to respect.

And to add to what others have said, trying to claim female (i.e if you object to male) as well as trying to claim woman is just massive appropriation of female experience. Whatever your experience is, it isn't female experience. It's a particular male experience, albeit that of a male who previously lived as a man, and is now living as a transwoman. But it isn't living as a female. You are trying to claim all of the linguistic space, and it's not yours to claim! And ditto lesbian space as well....................

It's obvious that you have very little respect for females or lesbians, given your insistence that you should be able to claim whatever you feel the need to claim given that it is your gender identity. You're not female (and hence you're not a lesbian), you're a bisexual trans woman based on your previous statements, what's wrong with that? Why (apart form the obvious) are you insisting on claiming what isn't yours?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/10/2016 13:41

I can respect your gender identity, as a gender identity. You identify as a woman and wish to live in a way that reflects that - that's absolutely fine with me, what business is it of mine?
What I do not respect is your view that gender identity must trump sex even for women who do not wish it to be so. I consider this bullying and entitled. I also don't respect your belief that gender identity is the same thing as gender, because I find it incoherent and privileged: the 'gender' that makes women suffer has nothing to do with how they identify.

NNChangeAgain · 05/10/2016 14:01

I know I'm not male at a biological/chromosomal level

How do you know - you said you've not been tested? You were recorded as male at birth because you displayed as biologically male.

Your phenotype is male, it's reasonable to assume your genotype will be male too, until your DNA is tested and proven otherwise.

There may well be social characteristics that distinguish you from other phenotypical and genotypical males (a female 'brain', if you like) but until that can be linked to a genetic cause, it can't be considered a phenotype in its own right.

Lancelottie · 05/10/2016 14:11

By all means have the word 'feminine', if you like.

I'm quite happy to present as unfeminine (which in books always seems to mean being a bit chilly and hard-nosed) or indeed as masculine (connotations of being square-built and a bit plain, which would fit).

But I think 'male' and 'female' need to stay firmly as currently defined.

MatildaOfTuscany · 05/10/2016 14:31

All the talk of "possible Kleinfelters" just smacks of yet more appropriation to me. You don't know. But the mere fact that you have fathered several children makes it incredibly unlikely. And FWIW, I have friends with a child with Kleinfelters - affected at the severe end of the spectrum. Their child's future gender identity is, frankly, the least of their worries. They're much more worried about whether he'll be able to walk and talk when he's older. (Admittedly, most people with Kleinfelters are not that badly affected). Yet more appropriation of other people's lives, other people's experience, to prop up your own world view.

You are at liberty to believe what you want. You cannot demand that others share your beliefs. You especially cannot expect them to share your beliefs where your belief system involves appropriating their lived experience, then reshaping the world in ways that are detrimental to them.

Datun · 05/10/2016 14:34

I just view anyone saying 'but you're male' as going ad hominem. Which just means you are running out of arguments.

Since that IS the entire argument, yes, I've run out.

ageingrunner · 05/10/2016 14:40

As arguments go, it's fairly compelling and easy to prove

singingsixpence82 · 05/10/2016 14:44

ATM - calling someone a man or male is not an insult if the person meets every single criteria of the definition for man/male. The terms "man" and "male" are not slurs in the same way as "Terf" is. If you do ever find out you are intersex then you can claim not to be male but until then everything we know about you (that you have told us yourself) tells us you're male and therefore a man. This is not an insult, just a fact.

We understand that you are uncomfortable with this fact for reasons that are most probably completely outside your control and most of us are sympathetic but that doesn't mean it isn't insulting for you to expect us to accept your appropriation of womanhood. By asking us to "respect" your gender identity by lying to you, to ourselves and to each other you are asking us to sign up to an ideology that is incredibly harmful to the approximately 50% of the population that are actually female. We choose not to be complicit in this harm. We reject your right to speak as if you are one of us because you are not. That doesn't mean we see you as being less than or below us, just different to us.

PoldarksBreeches · 05/10/2016 14:47

Ad hominem is a personal attack which is not pertinent to the matter at hand. By stating that you are male, we are refuting your argument that male and female are 'identities' that can be changed. Calling you male is neither a personal attack nor is it irrelevant to the argument.

singingsixpence82 · 05/10/2016 14:59

To clarify, ATM, the word "male" is a term that designates reproductive potential. It means "adult human with a sperm producing reproductive system, even if said system is incomplete or partially/fully non-functioning".

What many of your posts seem to be saying on here is "I am a person with a sperm producing reproductive system but it is bigotry to refer to me as a person with a sperm producing reproductive system. While I do not have an egg producing reproductive system it is disrespectful for you to refuse to refer to me as a person with an egg producing reproductive system if I request this".

Do you understand why we refuse to accept these requests?

singingsixpence82 · 05/10/2016 15:08

Sorry, the definition I gave above of "adult, human with a sperm producing reproductive system..." is for "man" not "male".

Felascloak · 05/10/2016 16:35

atm you don't have kleinfelters, if you did you would not have been able to father children.

WankingMonkey · 05/10/2016 16:37

If your AMAB child was pleading with you to let them live as a girl, self harming primary or secondary sex characteristics and telling they literally cannot live as a boy. But you could see how much happier and more positive they were when accepted as their internal gender identity (I.e. A girl), what would you do?

I would..let them 'live as a girl'. Given the only way to 'live as a girl' is clothing, toy choices and such? If they wanted to use a more feminine name too, then fine.

I would not set my child up for a lifetime of disappointment by telling him he could actually BE a girl though.

And if he expressed desire to chop his penis off I would get him psychiatric help along with reinforcing the view that dickless male does not equal female.

Lancelottie · 05/10/2016 16:53

Just had to look up AMAB. I see it doesn't only mean 'all mods are bastards' then.

CoteDAzur · 05/10/2016 16:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoteDAzur · 05/10/2016 17:07

ATM:

If you are aware that you can't change your biological sex (which is male), then what exactly is your problem with being told the fact that you are still male?
Because that's not my gender identity. Which you can't seem to respect.

You said that people can't change their (biological) sex. You were male, and since we agree your sex can't be changed, you are still male.

I respect you as I respect any other human being, but this insistence that we all lie "because it's not your gender identity" is frankly baffling.

"I know my chromosomes are XY (probably XY, haven't had a karyotype done yet tbh, I do have a few markers for Klinefelter)."

FFS, snap out of this fantasy world. If you have managed to father 3 children the old-fashioned way, you certainly don't have Klinefelter Syndrome, a primary feature of which is STERILITY.

"But my gender identity is of a trans woman. Repeatedly referring to me as male disrespects that. I know I'm not male at a biological/chromosomal level. I just view anyone saying 'but you're male' as going ad hominem."

How sad and confused the above sentences are. A shame. Your posts at the beginning of the thread were so sensible.

Ad Hominem is a logical fallacy that means Attacking The Person. Stating a fact (e.g. Transwomen are male or You are male) cannot be a logical fallacy and it certainly is not an attack, personal or otherwise.

You say that you know you are male. But it's a personal attack when we say it? hmm

"people seem to think it's perfectly ok to insult me"

Pray tell how we are supposed to avoid this, when you insist on being insulted by facts you are well aware of.

WankingMonkey · 05/10/2016 17:07

He has a transgender friend at college at present. I asked about that situation, and DS says 'X just finds it easier to be a girl instead of arguing about whether it's OK to wear skirts and stuff.'

Wow this is worrying, yet again. So its 'easier' to be a girl than it is to just be accepted for wearing a skirt. I don't doubt this is the case mind, but what a fucked up situation. And made even worse by those claiming that being feminine and liking 'girls' things actually does make you a girl...and others bending over backwards to support that view :S

ageingrunner · 05/10/2016 17:16

I would not set my child up for a lifetime of disappointment by telling him he could actually BE a girl though

Yy to this! Feel free to wear what you like and have whatever hobbies you like etc etc, but I would never lie to my child by telling him he'd been born in the wrong body. It's not try and not fair to lead a child to believe that Angry

SomeDyke · 05/10/2016 17:22

"And if he expressed desire to chop his penis off I would get him psychiatric help along with reinforcing the view that dickless male does not equal female."

Yes!

singingsixpence82 · 05/10/2016 17:22

How come you removed your posts cote? I thought they were interesting.

WitchingHour666 · 05/10/2016 18:00

Someone linked to a paper earlier in this thread, that shows clear evidence testosterone causes a type of frontal lobe syndrome in females: "18 female-to-male transgender people...took significant doses of testosterone" they then suffered "a decrease in brain matter in two key brain segments, the Broca’s and Wernicke’s areas." Testosterone is clearly causing brain damage in females, this study proves giving testosterone to them is totally unethical.

FreshwaterSelkie, yes Kelly Winters,is a member of the International Advisory Panel for the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Standards of Care. And is pushing for the removal of any reference of the fact children go through periods of resisting conforming to sex roles in childhood, in the official literature referring to GD.

They want to stop any assistance being given to children to help them accept themselves as they are. And are pushing for this idea (ironically) to be considered as a conversion therapy, in the official literature. They want hormones and surgeries to be the only option for kids who do not conform to the sex role allocated to them because of their sex.

They are also pushing for transvestic disorder to be removed from the DSM. I cannot think why they may want this removed? (Sarcasm) This born male also describes them self as a "empty nest mom".

gidreform.wordpress.com/2016/09/19/gender-madness-in-psycho-politics-transgender-children-under-fire/

genderinfinity.org/kelley/

CheerfulYank · 05/10/2016 19:09

I think it will reach critical mass at some point.

For awhile here in the states, the anti-vax movement was given its day in the sun and a lot of people were hoping on the bandwagon. But eventually the science won out. I have faith it will here too.

It's just going to take a lot of people who are willing to speak out even though they'll be labeled bigots.

SomeDyke · 05/10/2016 19:20

This is the paper:

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hbm.23133/abstract

I find a bit worrying the phrase in the abstract that says:

"Although the sex steroid hormone testosterone is integrally involved in the development of language processing, ethical considerations mostly limit investigations to single hormone administrations. To circumvent this issue we assessed the influence of continuous high-dose hormone application in adult female-to-male transsexuals."
Unethical, apart from F2M who are taking it anyway!

Shows decreased decreased gray matter volume with increasing levels of bioavailable testosterone exclusively in Broca's and Wernicke's areas.

The hypothesis seems to be that supposed sex based differences in language processing are down to testosterone. Hence we see what T does to female brains.........(which BT@W kind of puts a dent in the usual they've already got a male brain stuff, since if they did have, they'd presumably already have more male-typical language areas -- if you believe in such in the first place.

In the text:
"investigation of transsexual subjects offers the unique opportunity to study the influence of high-dose long-term hormone application onto the living human brain in healthy adults. "
There you, the perfect treatment-demanding lab-rats where they can happily perform experiments that would be unethical in anyone else! We don't know what hormones do to female brains, let's see shall we!

I would have thought that what hormones do on a normal developing brain is anyway rather different to what they would do to a female brain that has already developed without testosterone!

Not (exactly) brain damage (neuroplasticity and all that), but does show that adding T 'masculinizes' some brain regions rather than them already being masculinized as some would like to claim.

This sentence is also rather worrying:
"This is particularly interesting as also FtM transsexuals show higher autistic traits and autism subjects may in turn exhibit a poor language function ." Which I read as FtM more likely to have autistic traits and poorer language (and adding T makes this WORSE!). Whoopee!

I guess the one aspect here is that the subjects were already taking T, so might as well scan them and try and figure out what the fuck T does to female brains!

NNChangeAgain · 05/10/2016 19:22

But eventually the science won out. I have faith it will here too.

I never imagined that 20 years after contributing to the HumanGenome project, I'd be campaigning for the XX/XY chromosome model to be accepted by society as the system for determining the human (and most mammals, some plants and some insects) sexes.

The XY sex determination model was first proposed over 110 years ago - are the trans-activist movement really so arrogant to think that they can re-educate society and disregard scientific history? Even Aristotle realised that sex was determined at conception, by the sperm. Not by some nebulous "feeling" that people had after they were born.

CoteDAzur · 05/10/2016 19:56

Singing - I meant to withdraw just one of those posts. MNHQ reinstated the other one now.

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