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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 04/10/2016 21:21

I think Datun's right. Well you know I do.

singingsixpence82 · 04/10/2016 22:50

ATM - can I ask you a question about sex (as in male/female/intersex) in animals?

Since you don't seem to believe in sex as a descriptor of reproductive potential do you think it is transphobic to refer to males and females with regard to animals given we cannot determine their gender identity? Do we keep the male/female a reproductive distinction for animals and have the terms mean something completely different for humans and only humans or do we need new terms for reproductive capacity that will apply to animals as well as people? Will it be transphobic for a farmer to refer to a young bearing sheep as a female even if sheep can't be trans simply because it implies that female is to do with reproductive anatomy for the bearing and birthing of young.

If we are forced to use new definitions of male and female when it comes to people I do wonder how we will explain to our children that male and female is a physical distinction for all animals but is a feeling in human beings. If we have to change the words for all animals how will we make farmers//breeders use the new ones?

Oswin · 04/10/2016 22:52

ATM trans women ARE male. They sure ain't female.

I used to be on your side totally,but it was this type of stupidity that pushed me away.

You can't say transwomen aren't male cuz it's bullshit.

ATransMum · 05/10/2016 07:08

oestrogen makes everyone feel great

Guess you didn't read this:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/03/pill-linked-depression-doctors-hormonal-contraceptive

Or are you going to debunk that research?

ATransMum · 05/10/2016 07:09

@singlesixpence

Biological sex and gender identity aren't the same thing. Underpinning tenet of being trans.

I'm sure I explained this already. Like many of the questions you keep asking...

PoldarksBreeches · 05/10/2016 07:11

ATM it's generally understood to be progesterone that causes mental health disturbances, whether that's naturally occurring or synthetically prescribed in the pill.

shinynewusername · 05/10/2016 07:12

ATransMum

The common factor in all the contraceptives linked to depression in this study was progesterone, not oestrogen. Progesterone-only methods were more strongly linked to depression than the combined (oestrogen & progesterone) pill, suggesting that oestrogen is protective against it.

PoldarksBreeches · 05/10/2016 07:15

Trans women aren't male

It's impossible to argue against people who say things like this

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 07:21

when will this insanity end????

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 05/10/2016 07:23

Biological sex and gender identity aren't the same thing. Underpinning tenet of being trans.

I think most people here would be with you on that.

Biological sex is what makes people male or female, women/girls or men/boys.

Gender identity is a shitty, harmful concept that the world would be better off without. Radfems are trying to get rid of the gender boxes. Every time a male says "I'm a woman because my brain says so" they're reinforcing it.

ATransMum · 05/10/2016 07:25

Your binary view that gender is always aligned with biological sex is wrong. That's the underpinning issue. Some kids are transgender. You can either deal with that and accept they need to right treatment to align their bodies with that gender identity (like most of the medical evidence points to, despite anything you have linked), or you can let them experience a life of depression, angst and suicide attempts.

The challenge is figuring out which ones, not fighting the whole trans agenda. But please keep saying 'adult human female' over and over again because that really helps the issue.

If your AMAB child was pleading with you to let them live as a girl, self harming primary or secondary sex characteristics and telling they literally cannot live as a boy. But you could see how much happier and more positive they were when accepted as their internal gender identity (I.e. A girl), what would you do?

That is the crux here. Have any of you have been in that situation?

CoteDAzur · 05/10/2016 07:25

ATM - re "Biological sex and gender identity aren't the same thing. Underpinning tenet of being trans. I'm sure I explained this already"

And yet you keep conflating the two, notably when you claim transwomen are not male.

Transwomen are male (sex) but feel feminine (gender). They have XY chromosomes and male genitalia (sex) and want to be treated by the world in a feminine role (gender). They are of the sex that can make sperm (sex) who want to wear dresses, high heels, makeup (gender).

CoteDAzur · 05/10/2016 07:28

Before you change the subject, let's please settle this one.

Do you understand that transwomen are male, that it is their sex as written in their DNA and has nothing to do with any gender identity they might feel they want or need?

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 07:30

ATM, what a load of rubbish

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 07:36

I'm very much a remainer, against the brexit, but maybe one tiny glimmer of hope in leaving the eu is the oppotunity for the uk to rid itself of the trans agenda completely, no matter what the rest of europe is doing

FreshwaterSelkie · 05/10/2016 07:36

Your binary view that gender is always aligned with biological sex is wrong.

THAT IS NOT WHAT WE ARE SAYING!!

Human beings are sexually dimorphic and are male or female. Gender assigns masculinity or femininity to these sexually dimorphic beings as a system of coercive control of female bodied people. You've had this explained to you repeatedly. You think gender is innate. Feminists think gender is a weapon.

And I have also explained to you repeatedly that your mantra of "trans or suicide" perpetuates the very harm that you say you want to fight, particularly for young people. IT MAKES IT WORSE. There is never a single cause for suicide. Never. Never NEVER.

Felascloak · 05/10/2016 07:37

Ooh I have a whole thread on that article atm.
Yes it's progesterone that causes the issues. Which I guess trans women don't have to take as they have no endometrium to protect. Oestrogen is generally considered to have a mild anti-depressive effect.
I don't understand why the treatment has to be to align the body with the mind (surgery, cross sex hormones etc) rather than to align the mind to the body (this would be mainly psychological intervention). As far as I know there is no research looking at the efficacy of psychological treatments for transgenderism. Now the political pressure is to move away from treating this as an illness, there isn't likely to be either.

RiverTam · 05/10/2016 07:39

No one is assigned anything at birth, please don't trot that nonsense out. The baby's primary sexual characteristics (penis or vulva) are noted as m for male (not masculine) and f for female (not feminine). Male and female are sex, masculine and feminine are gender.

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 07:40

If your AMAB child was pleading with you to let them live as a girl, self harming primary or secondary sex characteristics and telling they literally cannot live as a boy. But you could see how much happier and more positive they were when accepted as their internal gender identity (I.e. A girl), what would you do?

This child needs help, fgs. What they don't need is to fall into the clutches of a bunch of transfacists who will manipulate their bodies, mutilate their genitals and attempt to brain wash them into supporting their fetishistic fantasies

FreshwaterSelkie · 05/10/2016 07:43

I think I might start a list of everyone and everything that the transactivists will co-opt (and not care about) in furtherance of the new orthodoxy.
Feminists (but only the nice kind)
Lesbians (but only the nice kind)
people with intersex conditions
gender non conforming children
women generally
people with autistic spectrum disorders
suicidal people

...who else?

Felascloak · 05/10/2016 07:46

I don't know what "live as a girl" means. I'd be happy for my children to wear what they want, play with what they want, dress how they like. I would be telling them that it's absolutely ok for boys to do whatever they like but you can't change your sex.
I think the psychologist with the child up thread had the right idea about finding an environment where children can express themselves however they like without being labelled "boy" or "girl" for liking certain things.

Felascloak · 05/10/2016 07:50

selkie

Stonewall gay activists
Any women historically who lived as men to pursue their careers (they were pioneering trans, not women forced into something by ridiculously narrow gender roles)
Gay people generally (by equating any proposed medical treatment for trans with conversion therapy)

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 05/10/2016 07:53

I wonder if you will get a "oops made a mistake with the whole pill thing" from atm ?

Oh no...forget i said that . We will just jump to a post which lectures on something no one has said.

Bit annoyed about the whole pill thing to be honest, many women have had shitty experiences on it.

Kr1stina · 05/10/2016 07:55

ATM - lots of us have children who don't conform to what you think of as a gender identity . We have sons who don't play football or enjoy rough and tumble games, who prefer to play with girls and dress up as princesses and have long hair .

The difference between us is that we don't think they are girls in boys bodies. We think they are boys who don't like football and do like sparkling dresses.

I have a daughter who doesn't perform femininity very much . She's not attached to men and has never had a boyfriend. She's not a trans man , she's a lesbian .

You don't see to grasp these very basic points that many of us are making .

Gender as an ideology harms most women and some men and is now harming some of our children . The solution is not hormones and surgery, it's getting rid of Gender , these socially constructed roles that are used to oppress people .

Feminists don't hate trans people, as your keep claiming . We are not transphobic because we don't have a phobia of them . But many of us DISAGREE with transactivists like you and the oppressive ideology you promote .

You need to understand that disagreeing is not bigotry or a hate crime . I disagree with the politics of the Conservative party too, that's not a hate crime. It's called freedom of speech .

Most people on MN don't share my religious views. I don't go around calling them names or shoving my views down their throat. I don't butt into threads shouting " but you ARE WRONG bigot bigot bigot "

If people ask what I belive and why I will tell them . But my interest would be to change their hearts and minds, not force them to parrot what I believe for fear of losing their jobs. That woudl be religious opression , not religious conversion.

I think that everyone here is entitled to freedom of belief and to express that belief , even if they disagree vehemently with me. I woudl fight for their right to do so.

MatildaOfTuscany · 05/10/2016 07:57

selkie - women with PCOS, boys born with hypospadias.
The black civil rights movement (because not wanting to shower with someone with a cock is just like demanding racially segregated toilets doncha know? I saw some black writers seriously pissed off about this one in the wake of the Rachel Dolzeal debacle. )

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