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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

OP posts:
SomeDyke · 04/10/2016 19:54

"Now I'm a trans woman who has dated women. So I've experienced homophobia."
Nope. More appropriation.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 04/10/2016 19:59

I know i am just a lurker and not offering anything to the conversation but this was quite an interesting thread originally

WankingMonkey · 04/10/2016 20:00

'Egg-bearing-potential-separated spaces' - not quite the same ring is it?

'Sex-separated spaces' works just as well. You know, like how they are now. Not gender, sex. Given the reasons for the segregation to begin with I don't think thats unreasonable?

CharlieSierra · 04/10/2016 20:03

Trans women aren't male

Please would you explain this? How are transwomen female (of the sex that can produce eggs ang gestate young)?

Thank you

kua · 04/10/2016 20:05

Rufus very valid point.

I also have the same concerns as the OP and I'm concerned of the strain being put on an over stretched CAMHS.

Longlost10 · 04/10/2016 20:09

trans children have the brains of the opposite gender

Oversimplification of the issue, but that is the current accepted theory. I know a lot of feminists don't like it and will argue against it. Until medical science has a different theory this is the currently accepted one.

medical science has proved differently, and this is not a currently accepted theory.

titchy · 04/10/2016 20:10

If it was all so binary and simple would we be even having this conversation?

It is that simple - you're the only one disagreeing!

JedRambosteen · 04/10/2016 20:15

Somehow this peach from ATM got missed earlier today:

...(and women get to call themselves Ms for arbitrary reasons).

I'm trying to work out whether ATM is starting to swing punches, the veil is slipping or whether we've been pranked by a really patient GF, but I'll bite.

Women do not use ms for arbitrary reasons. Men are uniformly referred to as Mr (barring professional or aristocratic titles), which gives no indication of marital status. Many women object to the use of Mrs/Miss because, unlike men, it reports marital status - and presumably availability for (often unwelcome) romantic or sexual overtures. A lot of women think it's noone else's business whether they are married or not, so choose to go by Ms. Not arbitrary at all - rather a social and political choice not to be defined by their availability to men.

If I was being generous, I'd say you have an awful lot still to learn about what it means to be a woman, but your airy trivialisation of things that matter to women is not going to win you over many female friends who could otherwise help you with your journey. But perhaps that doesn't matter if you plan to live in a LGBT bubble with other like-minded individuals.

CoteDAzur · 04/10/2016 20:17

"Trans women aren't male."

They are. (You are). Sorry but that is simple biological reality.

Transwomen are of the sex that makes sperm (male), NOT of the sex that makes eggs or bears young (female).

What happens to a transwoman's body if HRT stops?

A thousand years later, when the remains of a transwoman is found, will archeologists say they found the body of an adult male or female?

FreshwaterSelkie · 04/10/2016 20:19

And also spectacularly missing the point. This conversation is about what we can do about the fact that people are going to lose their jobs for daring to question the new orthodoxy, and that children are at grave risk of being harmed by professionals being impaired from exercising their professional judgement by a new McCarthyism. That's the bottom line, here.

FreshwaterSelkie · 04/10/2016 20:20

Whoops, my "and also" was supposed to follow titchy's post.

CoteDAzur · 04/10/2016 20:26

"It's Body Dysmorphia and Gender Dysphoria. Not even the same word!"

Yes, a lot of similar things are not the same word. They would have to be the same thing to be called the same word.

"I can't stand having my left leg. It shouldn't be part of me. I have to cut it off to be myself" looks a lot like "I can't stand having my penis and balls. They shouldn't be part of me. I have to cut them off to be myself" from where I'm sitting.

Would you tell us how and why they are different?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 04/10/2016 20:32

OMG, SomeDyke! You're playing bingo too? I thought it was just me. Started on the previous thread. At least I was playing bingo but now I think it's more like top trumps. The "less than 1% detransition" claim is a high score. Either way, I've nearly finished. You?

WinchesterWoman · 04/10/2016 20:35

Reading 4th wave now is extremely unnerving. The professionals in this field appear to be so terribly unprofessional, the way they ignore evidence that doesn't suit their narrative, and emphasise evidence that does. Examples are: non verbal transgender behaviour in babies/toddlers was given as a boy undoing the popper on a baby vest so that it hangs around the legs ' like a skirt' and a girl pulling hairclips out of her hair. These people are fucking insane.

vesuvia · 04/10/2016 20:38

ATransMum wrote - "Trans women aren't male"

But hundreds of transwomen have become biological fathers by fertilising women's eggs with their naturally-produced sperm as a result of penis-in-vagina sex, in the same way that sex between any other male and any female has created babies since the human race began.

What is not male about that?

WinchesterWoman · 04/10/2016 20:38

I've said it before and I'll say it again - thank goodness my children are older. My son wore a long dress for two years up to the age of four. To nursery and playmates , and parties. My daughter played boy sports and wore boy clothes until the age of 16. These people could have had them in their clutches.

Kennington · 04/10/2016 20:39

I do think much of these discussions are a blip. No credible scientist/biologist or medic would ever redefine sex. It is the same arguments made by the climate change deniers or those would don't agree with evolution. Ignoring overwhelming evidence isn't going to happen en masse.
Some services might be spouting this information but reality will catch up. It is a fashion to mangle language, particularly on the net. Unfortunately kids are being misinformed at the moment but this is rather an Anglo-American issue and will likely pass.

SomeDyke · 04/10/2016 20:49

ATM, I'm afraid, represents the sort of belief system that is being promoted as fact, and which is potentially leading to problems. It actually doesn't really matter how many times ATM says they're not pro transing kids, the beliefs and debating position that matter have been stated (and defended) many times.

"Trans women aren't male." Repeat ad infinitum.

"If it was all so binary and simple would we be even having this conversation?"
Pretend it's all so complicated!

"There is proven efficacy across a variety of studies.."
Misrepresent the science.

"How many trans people do you actually know?!?"

"Or you can try and 'pray the trans away', " Pretend any opposition is (only) from right-wing religious bigots, not 'nice' liberals.

"Draw your own conclusions from that"

Misrepresent the science again. Whereas the actual paper in this case says quite clearly in the Abstract:

"Our results demonstrate that regardless of the cause of observed sex/gender differences in brain and behavior (nature or nurture), human brains cannot be categorized into two distinct classes: male brain/female brain.'

It's a really hard position to counter, or argue against, not because it is a strong position, but because it is a belief. It's like trying to argue against transubstantiation...............

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 04/10/2016 20:55

You're right, Rufus. Running rings around ATM isn't going to get the baby bathed.

Trouble is, the OP is so, so worrying that it's hard to know quite what to do. Sitting there feeling sick doesn't quite cut it. I think one of the best things we can do is to keep a copy by us for the next few months whether electronic or paper, and actually read it (or forward it) to anyone we know who might care or, more importantly, be influential in any way. I can think of a couple. The more people hear just how utterly brainwashed and irresponsible professionals have become over these issues the better. The detail in OP is telling.

The other thing that might be worth doing is reposting OP in a more high profile place on MN. It's highly relevant to a lot of other boards. I think many parents who might have no interest in feminism would be hugely interested in this. I'm no MN expert but I bet there are people here who'd know where best and most relevant to place it. In the right forum it could be dynamite.

We learned from the Spartacus thread that lots of people still thought transwomen were a tiny group of gay men who'd all had SRS. The current state of play opened hundreds of pairs of eyes. This deserves sharing too.

StealthPolarBear · 04/10/2016 20:55

Interesting thread and I know so little about this. Does anyone know where this new information/ guidelines are coming from?

Datun · 04/10/2016 21:02

ATM, how can we weed out the undesirables from our sex segregated spaces ?

Datun

WinchesterWoman · 04/10/2016 21:04

I wonder if the arguments are doing some good though. Because every time you rebut as nonsense one of ATM's lectures, there could be a lurker mum or dad out there reading. Who's faced with this drivel from their teenagers, or social workers, or CAHMS, or teachers, or support staff, or psychologists. And the wise, sensible, neat and clear rebuttals posts from everyone will give them an answer and some courage. So maybe you are all protecting children right now.

Datun · 04/10/2016 21:13

And ATM, oestrogen makes everyone feel great - it's not confined to transwomen. It's effects are legendary.

WankingMonkey · 04/10/2016 21:14

I agree this should maybe be in a higher traffic part of MN too. However, then you would get the few that read 'trans' and immediately think bigot and such instead of actually reading and seeing the issues here.

Datun · 04/10/2016 21:19

WankingMonkey

I would generally agree, but the opening post is undeniably heartfelt and very powerful I think.

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