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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

First female soldier.

179 replies

Thecatsmum · 17/09/2016 08:10

Only they've not had any surgery and have just started hormone treatment therefore they are a man!

How can they possibly be feted as the first female soldier?

The world truly has gone mad.

OP posts:
Milander · 19/09/2016 17:01

Hello - should we write to them and ask their position? I'm going to, what is the point of our women's campaign organised if they don't speak out on this .

HexBramble · 19/09/2016 17:03

Such a deafening silence in the media about this. Why? Confused

HexBramble · 19/09/2016 17:05

Such a deafening silence in the media about this. Why? Confused

HairyLittlePoet · 19/09/2016 18:07

As far as I know the following parties and groups have made their position known as "males who declare they are women, are women.":
Fawcett
Green Party
WEP
Tories? Maria Miller seems to be pushing for this

It's the radfems and the far right conservatives who protest this. For entirely different reasons, I suspect.

HexBramble · 19/09/2016 18:38

Who is the WEP please?

ftw · 19/09/2016 18:45

Women's Equality Party

Miffer · 19/09/2016 18:56

Women's Equality Party

Seeing them mentioned nudged me to check out what they are up to. They just keep getting fucking worse. The equal parenting stuff is bizarre, I see what they are trying to do but fucking hell.

AltheaThoon · 19/09/2016 20:24

Maybe we can start our own group? We've got loads of talents that can be pooled together to form a strong organisation. I'm beginning to feel helpless.

I respect the job that this soldier does. I'm pleased that hes being supported by his family and employers during his transition. But I can't celebrate this as the first female to be employed as a fighter on the front line because this person isn't female.

I am more than a man taking hormones and wearing earrings. I am spartacus. And I'm glad I've got you women of mumsnet with me because I feel this is just the tip of the iceberg.

WankingMonkey · 19/09/2016 20:29

To be as close to a woman as he could be this man should have completed transition (this is hormones AND surgery) then redone all of his training/physicals with his lack of testosterone and typically physically weaker self. if he passed, along with the other women who are currently doing this, THEN I may have a bit mroe time for this 'I am a woman in the army' line. Still wouldn't make him a 'woman' but it would be a lot fairer than the way this has happened. Of course, this is not what is wanted. What is wanted is to be the 'first' by cheating, taking away womens achievements, whilst retaining male advantages and everything that comes with that.

TheCraicDealer · 19/09/2016 21:01

This makes me so angry, and what fucks me off is that people I know and like, like some of my female colleagues, think shit like this is great. Try explaining to a group of buzzfeed reading, OITNB watching, Lady Gaga listening women in their mid-twenties that this and stories like it aren't anything to celebrate and see what their reaction is.

We as women have been fed this great lie that trans successes are ours too, that as "allies" we should be slapping them on the back and congratulating them on blazing a trail for the rest of us. Nevermind the fact that it was women who paved the way to allow them to even think about coming out and staying in their male-dominated job- in fact, any job. Where were the awards and accolades for the first ever female firefighter? Who put a star on the arse of the women who were the first ever to serve in the British Army? There weren't any, because that was truly a battle- those women weren't thanked or congratulated, they were mocked, patronised, sexually harassed, underpaid and under appreciated for ten, twenty, fifty years. What these men are really being celebrated for is being brave enough to "give up" their male identity and being willing to be identified as one of us lesser mortals.

Call yourself what you like, I'll respect that, I'll use whatever pronouns you prefer. Just don't ask me to thank you for taking opportunities away from someone for whom gender isn't dependent on how long their nails are, what they like to wear, or what toys they used to play with as a child.

HermioneWeasley · 19/09/2016 21:09

I never tire of sharing this meme!

First female soldier.
Genvonklinkerhoffen · 19/09/2016 21:47

I googled "mod definition of female" and an FOI request came up as the second result... Asking the MOD to publish their definitions of the term woman and female.

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 19/09/2016 23:43

althea You're spit on - I think too we shpuld start our own feminist group.

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 19/09/2016 23:43

Ffs - spot on; should. Lazy buttery fingers.

WankingMonkey · 20/09/2016 00:16

This is an angle I have never considered before. What is the position of the army on mental health issues? Specifically, BDD..but mental health issues in general. I cannot seem to find anything by googling atm but I vaguely remember stories a few years back of people being discharged for depression and such.

WankingMonkey · 20/09/2016 00:16

Actually meant to post that on the other thread about this but is fine here too I guess.

MangoMoon · 20/09/2016 08:05

You don't get discharged for depression.

I wasn't army, I was 20 yrs RAF.
There are mental health services within the forces that you get quick access to (much, much faster than as a civvy).

The driver behind getting you 'better' mentally is to get a gun back in your hands as quickly as possible (guard duty etc requires you to be armed).

If you are suffering from mental health issues you are 'downgraded' and have 'limitations' applied to your med cat re what you can & can't do, but you are not discharged purely on depression.

Bambambini · 20/09/2016 08:27

I thought suicide risk was huge amongst transfolk. I hope their fellow soldiers have been completely understanding and supportive, especially given the fact that Chloe has access to a semi automatic weapon.

WankingMonkey · 20/09/2016 13:56

My thinking was, we don't fully understand trans issues, we are nowhere near to knowing this and it could well be a mental illness. Is it really a good idea to be giving mentally ill people access to very dangerous weapons and basically allowing them to put their own and other peoples lives in danger? There certainly is a high suicide rate amongst transpeople, both before and after transition..and a variety of health issues that appear to go hand in hand in a lot of cases .

Though surely it has been thought trough properly by the military and they aren't just under the same pressure as the rest of the world to be seen as 'progressive' eh...

MangoMoon Interesting. So if you were diagnosed with depression would you be removed from hand to hand fighting situations and such? An old friend of mine, her husband used to be in the army and had issues with anxiety and depression and she claims he got a 'medical discharge' because of this. It may also be because of the meds he had to take for it though.

MangoMoon · 20/09/2016 14:13

Over my time in I had PND after the birth of my eldest - was downgraded (no live weapons) for 6 months whilst on anti depressants.

I was diagnosed as bipolar about a year before leaving, I was med-discharged in the end but only as I had other medical conditions too which made it impossible for me to do anything other than my primary job (engineer).

I know plenty of folk who have been/are seeing the mental health teams with anxiety, depression, PTSD etc - it's not an automatic discharge as far as I'm aware, but you are not allowed access to live arms whilst you are under the care of the psych.

Not sure what happens with the army, but that's my experience with the RAF.

Genvonklinkerhoffen · 20/09/2016 18:30

The policies for treating those with mental health issues are largely "tri-service" so apply to all with slightly different restrictions depending on your precise job. For example, something that makes you fine to work in the "land" environment (i.e. the army) may preclude you working in "maritime".

I have had soldiers who couldn't work in kitchens because of their specific medical issue, they could do everything else though!

The services have excellent MH provision and are constantly trying to improve attitudes towards mental health. The restrictions on employment are bespoke and each individual is assessed differently for what they can and can't do.

Some folk will get discharged from the services because their MH issue isn't compatible with service, they aren't just chucked onto a scrap heap though. There is significant help for them to adjust into civilian life and get a job etc.

It's not one size fits all, it's nuanced to the individual (as you would expect) which is good because there is a high rate of MH issues in the forces for a multitude of reasons.

I'm yet to meet a serviceperson where I work who thinks this story is anything other than ridiculous.

WitchingHour666 · 22/09/2016 18:37

"So what do we do ? Do we let this go by or do we speak out to the media, to our MPs ? Do we start a petition asking for an assurance that women will not be erased ? Do we ask Maria Miller to publicly state her position that 'woman' is simply an identity unlike skin colour, disabled status, religious affiliation, age etc ? Do we simply have the discussion within our own circles ?"

We can do all the above;

We can speak to the media.

Writing letters to MP's is also something everyone can easily do.

We can also start a petition.

We can also write to Miller, I would leave out religion, as that is an ideology like this is and not based on biological realities.

We can also join any radical feminists groups that are near us.

We also can discuss this with people we know, to raise awareness. And we can form our own feminist groups from people we know, if there are none in our area.

It needs a multitasking approach. And we need to be unrelenting in putting pressure on these elected officials. As well as building up a strong feminist movement, to tackle this assault on our rights and feminism itself.

WitchingHour666 · 22/09/2016 18:39

"I think the best way to start is for some of us to draft letters and post them here. People can C&P, add, refine as they wish, but it will be a start for some who might be a bit overwhelmed with phrasing such a letter, myself included"

I have drafted a letter, to the governments response to the trans report, anyone is free to cut and paste whichever bits they like. If we all send these letters, then we may have an impact. It is very long, at around 1,560 words, so if you can make it shorter it will be better (also I haven't spell checked it yet).

Dear MP,

We, the mumsnet women, are writing this letter as we are deeply concerned by the government's response, following the transgender equality report. In the response is says: "A commitment to equality is at the heart of this Government and is essential to building a strong economy and a fair society. We want to build a society that celebrates and benefits from the talents of everyone; ensuring fairness, protecting the most vulnerable, and prioritising equal opportunities for all."
This sounds positive, however, we have some concerns we would like to share. We acknowledge that people born female; girls and women are disadvantaged and discriminated against in society presently. There does not seem to be a acknowledgement of this in either the report or the response.

Despite the work women's campaigners have done in the past, society still treats males and females unequally. We believe this starts from the moment a child is born male or female. The campain let toys be toys has highlighted this: "Let Toys Be Toys campaign is asking the toy and publishing industries to stop limiting children’s interests by promoting some toys and books as only suitable for girls, and others only for boys." The campaign for a commercial free childhood, has similarly highlighted these issues. The independent report on the impact of the commercial world on children's wellbeing, and the sexualisation of young people review. Also highlighted how girls are being socialised into a (usually sexually objectified) role. As adults females are also under represented in STEM careers and the pay gap is still present. Females still suffer high levels of sexual assault and rape, and the perpetrators are overwhelmingly male. Therefore, males are clearly an advantaged group and females a disadvantaged group. We are treated differently because of the sex we are born, and an inferior role is socially enforced on females. Whilst males are encourged to assume a socially superior role. We call these roles: gender and do not believe they are innate. We are very concerned that the government wants to protect "gender" (these negative roles) that disadvantages females, by law over biological sex. As this can only further benefit males to the detriment of females.

We are aware of the popularity of queer theory and postmodernism in the academy and the ideology that comes with that. For example the idea that classes of people are no longer disadvantaged, by the social categories they are born into. These ideas run throughout postmodernist discourse. There is also an idea, which forms the basis of queer theory, that categories of people can be "destabilised". And people can "perform" what amounts to gender stereotypes and then enter one or the other category of people, or declare themselves out of both categories altogether. This has come to be known as transgenderism. We have seen this idea of categories of people being fluid, being dismissed in regards to race, as the case of the white woman Rachel Dolenz demonstrates. Rachel was a white woman "identifying" as black, she gained a place in a black civil rights organisation, this was rightly condemned. Even though she sincerely "identified" as black and thought of herself as black. Why is the government not dismissing this idea of fluid categories of people in regards to sex?

This concept of fluid categories of people, is harmful only for the disadvantaged group. In Rachel's case black people, as she may experience negativity due to being perceived as black. But she has not got the same life experiences as actual black people. Moreover, she has chosen to "identify" with a disadvantaged group, which other black people do not have the privilege of doing. This can not be seen as "progressive" by people born into the disadvantaged group. As the ideology is in fact advocating "identifying" out of being born in a discriminated against group, if you do not like how you are perceived or treated. We do not think that is very "progressive" at all, but in fact regressive. We see sex the same way, when a male person "identifies" as female (a woman), he is a member of an advantaged group entering a disadvantaged group.

We do not believe which gender stereotypes you perform or identify with should be written into law, and supersede biological sex. As this severely harms people born female in many ways. Such as male people "identifying" as female then changing the stats on the pay gap, women in STEM careers, and many other things. The first "woman" soldier on the frontline is actually a male and so on. Whilst these men are lauded for being "brave" for seemingly entering the disadvantaged group of female (girls/women), women and girls suffer. Of course there are obvious reasons why a female may wish to "identify" out of being in the disadvantaged group of female. There are less obvious reasons why a male may wish to "identify" into that disadvantaged group. The DSM V's description of those diagnosed with gender dysphoria sheds light on what these motivations may be.

The DSM V says there are two groups of people who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria the "late-onset" group and "early-onset" group. It states male "adolescents and adults with late-onset gender dysphoria frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement." And
"factors under consideration, especially in individuals with late-onset gender dysphoria (adolescence, adulthood), include habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia (i.e., sexual arousal associated with the thought or image of oneself as a woman) andother forms of more general social, psychological, or developmental problems." It also says these "late-onset" men after gen­der transition, "self-identify as lesbian." In striking contrast to females: "Natal femaleswith the late-onset form do not have co-occurring transvestic behavior with sexual excitement." This makes it understandable why heterosexual males may wish to "identify" as the disadvantaged group female.

Moreover, we believe there are obvious reasons for not accepting males who "identify" as females (as women) into sex segregated spaces. Because males are the perpetrators of the vast amount of sexual crimes, and women are the vast amount of victims of those crimes. However, we highly sympathise with what the DSM V calls the "early on-set" group of people diagnosed with gender dysphoria and who also refer to themselves as "trans".

The DSM V describes those diagnosed with gender dysphoria in the "early-onset" group, in the following: "Adolescent and adult natal males with early-onset gender dysphoria are almost al­ways sexually attracted to men (androphilic)." "Adolescent and adult natal females with early-onset gender dysphoria are almostalways gynephilic." (Lesbian.) It is obvious why someone who is homosexual and does not not follow gender stereotypes may think they should have been born the opposite sex. As we live in a society that discriminates against homosexuals, and has very ridged gender roles for the sexes. This brings us to our concerns about children, as the DSM V states: "For both natal male and female children showing persistence, almost all are
sexually attracted to individuals of their natal sex." So if a child does not conform to gender roles into adulthood then it is highly likely they will be homosexual. The idea of encouraging children who do not conform to gender roles to think of themselves as the opposite biological sex. Could reasonably be described as a conversion therapy for children suspected of being homosexual. Considering sterilisation is involved this is very concerning.

Furthermore, the DSM V says there could be other reasons for gender dysphoria under "differential diagnosis" like "nonconformity to gender roles", "Transvestic disorder", "Body dysmorphic disorder", "Schizophrenia (or other psychotic disorders)" or an "Emasculinization desire". We believe that the diagnosis of 'gender dysphoria' in reality lumps all these various elements together. And that these people end up either thinking or claiming they are 'trans', due to ideologies that have gained popularity in the academy i.e. Postmodernism and queer theory. Which have then been promoted to the public as transgenderism, through the media. We do not believe that gender dysphoria should be categorised as a mental illness. We think the other underlying issues should be addressed in more appropriate ways. We also do not believe that biological categories of people should be legally replaced by whether one has an affinity for a particular gender role.

In conclusion we do not see how it is reasonable or ethical for a male person to be permitted to "identify" as a woman. Which can only be based on stereotypes of what he thinks a woman is i.e. That women wear skirts, make up, have long hair, are shy, flirty, sexy etc. We do not think this makes a male a female: a woman. Anymore than wearing a turban, liking curries and watching Bollywood movies makes a white person asian. Neither do we accept the pseudo science of "brain sex" as an explanation for innate gender roles; this concept is reminiscent of the "negro brain" experiments from the eugenics era. We also do not believe that females are castrated males, we find this idea to be highly insulting to females. These recommendations appear to us as obtuse and naive in the extreme. Female (women, girls), and male (men, boys) are biological categories not a set of gender stereotypes. There is no acknowledgement of the fundamental conflict between females rights and males desire to "identify" as one of us. By supporting queer theory ideology and therefore the existence of transgenderism the government is supporting discrimination against people born female. This needs to be addressed.

Yours sincerely,
The mumsnet women

MatildaOfTuscany · 22/09/2016 19:50

As someone said on the other thread, I don't think you can put "we the mumsnet women", WW. Not everyone on mumsnet thinks that way, and if you turn it into a spat about how many of us are Spartacus, how many don't care, and how many think we're TERFs, you distract attention from the real issue.

BetsyM00 · 24/09/2016 09:17

Reply from my complaint to BBC:

"Thanks for contacting us regarding the BBC News website.

I understand you believe it is incorrect to report that a transgendered soldier is a woman serving on the front line as the soldier only began hormone therapy.

Thanks for raising this issue. The report did state that the application process for female recruits was due to open later this year so it looked at why a decision had been made for Guardsman Allen to stay now in the infantry. Here it explained that hormone therapy had begun last month and that the soldier’s name changed from Ben to Chloe Allen.

With this change of name, and status, now on the official documentation, and the decision to allow Guardsman Allen to stay, then we reported this as the soldier to become first woman on the front line with the British Army.

That being said, we appreciate your comments about this issue and that you may continue to hold a different view. All complaints are sent to senior management and news teams every morning and I included your points in this overnight report.

These reports are among the most widely read sources of feedback in the BBC and ensures that your complaint has been seen by the right people quickly. This helps inform their decisions about current and future programmes.

Once again, thank you for contacting us."

Pah! If the application process for female recruits is due to open later this year then there quite simply CANNOT be any females currently serving. Pah, again!

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