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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

First female soldier.

179 replies

Thecatsmum · 17/09/2016 08:10

Only they've not had any surgery and have just started hormone treatment therefore they are a man!

How can they possibly be feted as the first female soldier?

The world truly has gone mad.

OP posts:
LadyScience · 17/09/2016 13:37

TwoLeftSocks, there was another article on the BBC this week which used included a description of what 'cis' means Hmm

Have an awful feeling the headline may go something like ''Ciswoman follows first woman to front line'

LadyScience · 17/09/2016 13:37

X-post with everyone!

Bloodybridget · 17/09/2016 14:09

Glad to see this thread, have been fuming over the reports all morning. Nothing to add to what pps have said, apart from, Newspeak has truly become our lingua franca.
I am Spartacus.

TwoLeftSocks · 17/09/2016 14:10

Ffs. I am Spartacus too.

Blistory · 17/09/2016 14:25

I can't help but think that Chloe may well become the tipping point. This is the first time that a very clearly male bodied person has been presented to the British public as a woman. A soldier, no less.

She's a soldier, just in case anyone missed that, and therefore automatically one of the good men and by extension, now a good trans woman. She can't possibly be a threat to women.

It's been so well done that you would think it had been planned.

If we let this go passed without comment, we are going to lose our ability to protect biological women. This gives us an opportunity to have a discussion without all the old baggage but simply on whether the public believe this soldier is a woman, whether we should distinguish between transwomen and women, whether there remains a genuine need for women to be identifiable as a group. We can genuinely commend Chloe on her achievement whilst making a rational case for her to be identified as a transwoman and not a woman.

So what do we do ? Do we let this go by or do we speak out to the media, to our MPs ? Do we start a petition asking for an assurance that women will not be erased ? Do we ask Maria Miller to publicly state her position that 'woman' is simply an identity unlike skin colour, disabled status, religious affiliation, age etc ? Do we simply have the discussion within our own circles ?

Do we ask the public to consider why Caster is vilified for not resembling a woman physically and yet Chloe is exalted for not resembling a woman physically ?

There's an opportunity here if we're willing to take it.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 17/09/2016 14:47

Blistory
I agree that this is a tipping point and could go very badly if not challenged.

I think the best way to start is for some of us to draft letters and post them here. People can C&P, add, refine as they wish, but it will be a start for some who might be a bit overwhelmed with phrasing such a letter, myself included

crikey81 · 17/09/2016 14:49

It's telling that I've not seen a single news outlet reporting this story that is allowing comments

user1472515172 · 17/09/2016 14:51

It's telling that I've not seen a single news outlet reporting this story that is allowing comments

I noticed this too. This is absolutely not something that we are being invited to discuss. We are being TOLD.

HermioneWeasley · 17/09/2016 14:54

BBC story doesn't have a photo of Chloe. That would be too much of a give away.

How is it news that someone who is male, was recruited as a male, was trained as a male, has male strength is now serving in the front line? HOW???!!!

LadyScience · 17/09/2016 14:57

I think that's one of the things that made/makes me so angry at the reports.

Statement of Fact: This person is the first woman to serve on the front line. Hurrah!

Blistory · 17/09/2016 14:57

So we need a call to action then.

Open letter ?
Mumsnet poll ?
Petition ?

What do posters think would be the best way to speak out and have people listen ?

hotmail123 · 17/09/2016 15:03

'Transgender soldier becomes first woman on Army front line' BBC news website headline

This is a factually and legally incorrect headline.
This person is a man who has had surgery. Not the first woman.
It's an insult to all women who have and who are fighting for equal rights in paid and unpaid work.
Please contact:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/contact-us/editorial

TwoLeftSocks · 17/09/2016 15:04

As far as I can see, none of the news pages have it on Facebook either, therefore not allowing comment.

I'm not sure the best way to speak up, open letter to the general quoted in the news reports maybe?

MaudGonneMad · 17/09/2016 15:05

This person hasn't had surgery, hotmail

NNChangeAgain · 17/09/2016 15:08

This person is a man who has had surgery. Not the first woman.

Nope.

No surgery.

Hormones for two weeks.

Blistory · 17/09/2016 15:11

Does the BBC article or any others contain clearly erroneous or legally incorrect information ? Is there anything in them that could contribute to the discrimination of women ? Can we point to the real harm being done ?

This needs to be a consistent but coherent message that we get across

LadyScience · 17/09/2016 15:18

It's scientifically erroneous, Blistory, but I don't think that matters in the current climate, e.g. if someone fundamentally believes trans woman (XY) = woman (XX).

FreshwaterSelkie · 17/09/2016 15:28

for fucks SAKE!!

oh brave new world where women break through into roles previously forbidden to us! Chloe must have dreamed of this since she was a young girl, mustn't she? overcoming sexism and male dominated fields, plugging away to get recognised for her abilities, waiting and hoping for the culture and rules to change to allow her to fulfill her dream, and finally it happened!

thats the story I want to read about the first female front line soldier, only that's now been pissed all over and prevented from EVER happening in favour of a man growing his fingernails, changing his name and sailing off with all the glory. Fuck. That.

TwoLeftSocks · 17/09/2016 15:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TallulahTheTiger · 17/09/2016 15:47

Will Chloe now get called or referred to as
Female/girly type; lumpy jumper; 'one of them who bleeds for 3 days but doesn't die'; there's so many more if 'she' wants the real army experience...

Eminybob · 17/09/2016 15:51

I'm so pissed off about this. I just ranted to DH pretty much the whole of a 4 hour car journey. He very much agrees with me.

What freshwaterselkie says pretty much sums it up for me.

I never identified as a feminist much before but am leaning strongly in that direction now. I am Spartacus.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 17/09/2016 15:54

The Mail is allowing comments. There are some entertainingly stupid ones, like people who haven't read the story saying she won't be able to hack it.

Eminybob · 17/09/2016 16:01

I did read a couple of the face book ones. I immediately closed it down and came back here. Fucking ridiculously stupid people.

NNChangeAgain · 17/09/2016 16:02

I'm wondering if we can force it to debate in the House of Commons via a petition on the basis that it's the Army who are referring to Chloe as "a woman" despite no GRC.

It's one thing for private companies and even universities etc to choose to refer to transwomen as women - that's up to them - but when it comes to publicly funded services, shouldn't they act in line with The Gender Recognition Act? Chloe does not meet the legal definition of a woman. She would not be legally permitted to enter the military as a woman without a GRC - so why are the military now referring to her as such?

General Sir James Everard, Commander of the Field Army, said: "I'm delighted to have our first woman serving in a ground close combat unit

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 17/09/2016 16:06

In The General's Daughter, when the narrator is in a bar, he meets an old colonel - "He gave me his view of women in the military - "They squat to piss. Try doing that with sixty pounds of field gear"."

Until Chloe has had to deal with this, has had to deal with getting her period whilst on the front line and changing a tampon miles from any toilets, she is not the first bloody woman on the front line!

I am not a soldier. But I am a DofE leader and when I am on expedition in wild country and have to find enough privacy to squat to pee, or work out how and when I am going to be able to change a sanitary towel, while the blokes I am with pop behind the nearest tree for the former and never think about the latter...

If Chloe identifies as a woman that much, she should step down from her front line position and reapply when women are allowed to apply later this year. And go through the selection process alongside other women.

I am raging about this. She can self-identify as what the hell she likes but she is not the first woman on the front line. I am Spartacus.