Trans Understanding Help

[Itsallveryconfusing]

Hello.

Please be gentle as I'm not very knowledgeable about this but I'm trying to learn.

My eyes have been opened due to the recent threads like the I am Spartacus ones. I have always been very liberal and believed that someone can be born in the wrong body when it comes to makes feeling like a woman etc. I've come to see that gender is more a social concept.

I've been speaking with DH about this who, again, is very liberal and believes in equality and is pro women rights, although his workplace is very male orientated. He's not afraid to argue against the party line that women are weaker emotionally etc. His view on trans is very much live and let live he firmly believes that if someone wants to identify as female or male then they should be allowed to, as it must be awful to feel trapped. He was shocked that my view is changing and that my views are more in standing with hard right wingers who look at equality is a dirty word.

Sorry for the essay but I'm struggling with what I know is correct in my head with the concept that people should be happy and if that makes them happy then I should respect.

Mermaid This article links to a number of relevant studies.

For me it's not about transwomen being violent.

It's about the principle of women only spaces. We fought so hard for them.

" I only ever see people saying vile things about transwomen in these kind of discussions"

And this is how it starts. Any questioning of the new orthodoxy is "vile". A brilliant way to put thoughtful liberal people trying to make sense of things onto the back foot and emotionally blackmail them.

When ever I read "I don't have a problem sharing a loo/bathroom/changing room with a transwoman" on threads like this my brain automatically finishes the sentence with "so no other woman should either"
So if it doesn't negatively impact on you Mermaid you don't think it's a problem?

Transmen were born women. They take it for granted they'll be oppressed. Only said slightly tongue in cheek...

Agree Bertrand. Very hard for those of us who have supported equality, with rallies/voting etc, to be told we are bigots and "trans-phobic". It is very easy to silence women by telling them their words are "vile". I'm not buying it. I know I am a kind and fair person. I'm also a victim of male violence who does not want to share female-only space with men. Nor do I want my young daughters to feel unable to call out a man in their female space, because he has decided he "feels" as though he is a woman. We have sex segregated spaces for very good reasons. Why should women pay with their hard won rights, because some men feel they are not safe from some other men? WE are not safe from men.

Racial segregation is completely different. Black people posed no threat to white people on account of their race. Some trans people DO pose a threat based on their trans status.

That's why Davinia, Ada et al are so dangerous - their arguments oppress those they allegedly seek to empower.

"I only ever see people saying vile things about transwomen in these kind of discussions"
This type of statement is usually not followed with anything that tells us just what the vile things are. What are those horrible things people has written? Is it that transwomen are male?

Tarttlet Well said.

I'm negatively impacted by many things. It doesn't mean I can belittle and villify other people, imply that they are a danger and make it so they're too afraid to pee in a public bathroom.

I've never seen anyone write anything vile about transwomen on here. People only say that it's not possible to change sex, penises are male, transwomen are transwomen not women. All inalienable facts.

Got to go now. Some of that was educational for me, the non-reactionary, prejudice crap I have listened to and will take on board. I come from a place of compassion and empathy and will always stick up for those that are marganalised. Until next time x

But you're not negatively impacted by this particular issue are you Mermaid and you don't appear have any sympathy for the women this may have a negative impact on.

If transwomen are too afraid to use the men's bathrooms because of the minority of men who might be violent, is the problem with transwomen or men?
If women are too afraid to use the women's bathrooms because of the minority of transwomen (or pretend transwomen) who might be violent, is the problem with transwomen or women?

Seems to me like the buck always stops with women and I am not entirely sure how that is fair.

For me it helps to think how would I feel if I was born a man? I'd be so confused and upset, I agree it's a very difficult concept to get your head around though!
Also, I guess I feel like it doesn't affect me if someone changes their gender

As you are thinking about your position on this, I'd just like to suggest that you do a range of research outside of Mumsnet. There is quite a consensus on here to the extent that people who like me don't agree (and in fact find a lot of the statements disturbingly transphobic) tend to avoid posting. So don't use this forum as your one source of info.

It's because of what I have read outside of mumsnet that I am so angry.

No penises in women only spaces. Full stop. That's it. Non-negotiable.

I get that trans people don't feel comfortable in their biological bodies. However, a man reared as a boy with male privilege can have no concept of what it feels like to be a woman. I understand that they feel "not man". But it's a huge leap to assume that they therefore must be women.

They haven't experienced the horror of the first period, the nightmare of running your life around a monthly bleed. They haven't been shit scared that they are pregnant after teenage experimentation, they haven't been pregnant or felt the awful pain of infertility when your womb won't co-operate.

If they want to get their gonads removed and call themselves she then that's fine if it makes them happy. I will use the appropriate pronoun, be kind to them and want them to be happy. I may even consider sharing female spaces with them if they have transitioned.

However, if they still have their gonads then they can stay out of our spaces and stop trying to impose their male privilege on us. They can stop harassing lesbians and demanding they have sex with their lady dicks. Nope. No.

Feminists have fought long and hard to get where we are and the battle is far from won. We don't need a load of blokes coming along to tell us what feminism is, thanks. We know and it isn't you and your dicks.

Ali I does when they wave a penis in your face in the changing room.

You can stick up for the marginalised without entering an alternate reality.

That's very true Carol and I wouldn't want my children to see that. I do also worry that it allows men's access into areas where women change / go to the toilet etc. There are a lot of pervs out there !

For me it boils down to the fact that hiding in the ladies together does nothing.

That demanding women to let you into the ladies because you're scared to be in the mens is bullying.

That as a MTT, you can put on a suit and tie, wipe off the makeup and bingo, everyone will see you as a bloke again, golden ticket out of whatever oppression you had.

That in any other dysmorphic disorder, we try to treat the root cause - I read an account by an anorexic woman, who sat in a support group with some trans, and where all the anorexic people were being coached to change how they saw themselves, the trans were being applauded for their surgical and medical interventions - the dissonance was almost unbearable she said.

Mermaid - It doesn't mean I can belittle and villify other people if you do on the off chance come back please can you tell us specifically which posts have belittled or vilified TW? I can't see any but I may have missed something...

Q: Why do we exclude men from women's toilets/changing rooms etc?
A: because of the risk of sexual assault and the fact that most men are physically much stronger than most women, thus a women cannot physically be expected to defend herself.

Anyone disagre with that? No? Ok

Transwomen commit violent sexual assaults at exactly the same rate as men and have the physical strength of men.

So why should they be allowed into women's safe spaces?

Everyone deserves to be safe. We cannot make half the population unsafe in the name of equality.

It's amazing how many discussions you can avoid if you throw accusations of belittling and vilifying then leave..............

I think most people agree generally with live and let live. So I don't care what someone else wears. Unless they are walking around naked on a Saturday afternoon in the high street, it doesn't affect me. I might think what someone wears looks ridiculous, but so what. It is up to them.

The issue comes when one persons rights, interferes with another persons rights. Where I live our public swimming pools are largely old ones with communal changing rooms. I think it is right that I should be able to change without seeing a male body or penis. I am quite happy for the swimming pool to make arrangements for a male who thinks he is a woman, to change elsewhere. I don't want to stop anyone using the pool. But I also have rights.

I don't have any problem with trans people who just want to live their lives in the way that seems best to them. Most trans people aren't transactivists.

The transactivists, however, are vile - many of them extremely aggressive, misogynist and lesbophobic. Take a look here - terfisaslur.com/

I've never seen anyone on MN, no matter how critical they are of the trans agenda, say anything that comes remotely close to the violent invective spewed by transactivists. (For the uninitiated, 'TERF' stands for trans-exclusionary radical feminist, i.e. woman who disagrees with transactivist ideology).

YY Bertrand. Isn't it funny how all these types do that.