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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans Understanding Help

239 replies

Itsallveryconfusing · 26/08/2016 13:29

Hello.

Please be gentle as I'm not very knowledgeable about this but I'm trying to learn.

My eyes have been opened due to the recent threads like the I am Spartacus ones. I have always been very liberal and believed that someone can be born in the wrong body when it comes to makes feeling like a woman etc. I've come to see that gender is more a social concept.

I've been speaking with DH about this who, again, is very liberal and believes in equality and is pro women rights, although his workplace is very male orientated. He's not afraid to argue against the party line that women are weaker emotionally etc. His view on trans is very much live and let live he firmly believes that if someone wants to identify as female or male then they should be allowed to, as it must be awful to feel trapped. He was shocked that my view is changing and that my views are more in standing with hard right wingers who look at equality is a dirty word.

Sorry for the essay but I'm struggling with what I know is correct in my head with the concept that people should be happy and if that makes them happy then I should respect.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 26/08/2016 21:28

"In the past 8 years, 8 trans people were murdered in the UK. In the same period, more than 800 (non-trans) women were murdered in the UK."

This.

thedogstinks · 26/08/2016 21:37

I'd quite like it if trans people could go about their lives without fear of prejudice, or violence and with equal access to the employment, health services, education etc.

I've said the same, often.

But trans women aren't women, which means they should be able to be excluded from women only spaces (bathrooms, domestic abusers shelters, feminist groups, lesbian groups, board/scholarship groups etc).

It's not just the gobby, mysoginistic Ada's who are driving the agenda, either. Have you been living under a rock?. Legislation and public policy is being affected! I don't want to see the meaning of 'woman' boiled down to 'anyone who says they are one'. I don't want to be referred to a 'pregnant person' rather than a woman because someone is worried about hurting the feelings of the special snowflakes. I don't want my daughter to be forced to use the change room with a male. I don't want to see children turned into lifelong medical patients for no good reason.

BertrandRussell · 26/08/2016 21:45

"I'd quite like it if trans people could go about their lives without fear of prejudice, or violence and with equal access to the employment, health services, education etc"

Me too.

But I want women to do that too. And I will not support anything which means women have to move over and give up some of their hard won gains in all these areas to transwomen.

vesuvia · 26/08/2016 22:38

In my previous post, I should have written "Most murders of transwomen occur in South America" instead of "Most murders of transwomen occur in Brazil." My other comments about Brazil are unaffected by this revsion.

FloraFox · 26/08/2016 23:28

The rate of murder of white "lesbian" MTTs is lower than the rate of murder of the general population. In fact, there is a distinct racial divide between MTTs. "Lesbian" MTTs are predominantly white. I can't think of any black "lesbian" MTTs. Laverne Cox's casting in OITNB is so unconvincing as LC' is obviously gay.

PoisonWitch · 26/08/2016 23:42

Most murders of transwomen are committed by men. Sometimes as part of the general clusterfuck that is attitudes toward sex workers and how they don't really count as people. Other times its because patriarchal men are punishing other men for daring to not conform to sexist standards of behaviour. These men already think it's ok to harm the inferior sex and cannot cope with the superior class identifying with them.

Much like how racists hate blacks but truly despise whites who take part in behaviours traditionally/stereotypically associated with black culture.

PoisonWitch · 26/08/2016 23:44

What I'm saying is that why isn't the issue of male dominance and violence as a construct under attack instead of women's rights to associate with each other free from men?

Original poster
Itsallveryconfusing · 26/08/2016 23:44

Thank you for everyone's reply.

I have to admit when first I read about people who identify as women using female toilets I agreed with the thinking that 'if you know what genitals I have, you are the one doing something wrong'. I totally agreed with this thought process but recently I have been seeing that the issue goes far deeper than that.

Reading about a posters daughter (i think they are called Moll) who is a lesbian and the abuse she has suffered has shocked me. I am shocked that the rights of women to feel safe and be free from abuse at Edinburgh Uni were destroyed purely because they are female. The misogyny is obvious.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 26/08/2016 23:59

Because people think male violence is inevitable. It's far easier to guilt trip and bully women into accepting trans women into female sex-segregated spaces.

misskelly · 27/08/2016 00:18

I suppose one of the main problems is that women can't discuss issues that impact on them without transpeople muscling in. It's an echo of when you couldn't discuss feminism without someone moaning what about the menz! Now it's what about the transmen/women.

I wish no ill will on anyone but when a minority try and silence, intimidate and act aggressively agianst those they claim to be like or identify as it is a recipe for disaster.

OlennasWimple · 27/08/2016 00:37

I'm fortunate enough not to feel that I am in the wrong body, but I am empathetic enough to believe those who say that that is their experience, and I will support them receiving appropriate treatment to resolve that problem.

I'm also fortunate enough not to have been directly affected by rape or serious sexual assault, but I am empathetic enough to believe those who have when they say that being asked to share intimate spaces with men is unacceptable, and I will support that position when I see that hitherto red line being blurred by men who want to muscle in.

FreshwaterSelkie · 27/08/2016 06:39

For the poster looking for moderate trans voices, Gender Apostates might help. There's also Snowflake Especial. Or search on youtube for Jen Bob, who is super smart and hilarious.

Hope this helps you to understand that the gender critical voices here don't come from a place of bigotry or ignorance. Many of us have spent a long time thinking and talking about these issues, including with trans people.

I was thinking of an example where trans activism and feminism can stand together, and I have to say, that in my opinion, the shared issues are limited. I heard one today on a podcast, where a transwoman was fired because they transitioned. Now, I would absolutely stand behind that person and fight for their right to keep their job as they transitioned, because that's blatant discrimination and I don't want to live in a world where that happens.

But such a large percentage of transactivism seems oblivious to the need to understand how to balance their needs with women's needs for privacy, safety, protection etc, and that's something that I can't ever get on board with.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 27/08/2016 07:58

There's room for calm, rational discussion. I only occasionally see that on MN. I mostly see fear, anger and ignorance - and an echo chamber that stokes those feelings

Totally agree vashta virtually the only transwomen that get discussed her are extremist transactivists.

FreshwaterSelkie · 27/08/2016 08:12

Do you know what, I really take exception to the sweeping generalisation that gender critical discussions here are "ignorant". That's just not true - did you even see the post of mine that appears directly above yours ^^ with some links to moderate trans sites for someone to have a look at?

And as for fear and anger, yes there are both, because women are afraid because their rights are being eroded, and they are angry about it. Telling people to shut up and sit down isn't a very constructive way to deal with that.

BertrandRussell · 27/08/2016 08:15

"otally agree vashta virtually the only transwomen that get discussed her are extremist transactivists"

Presumably because other transwomen are just getting on with their lives and not trying to usurp other people's hard won rights.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 27/08/2016 08:23

Presumably because other transwomen are just getting on with their lives and not trying to usurp other people's hard won rights

Yep, and I'll bet they are doing it whilst also using the women's toliets when they need a pee. And no one ever cares or notices.

I think it's just important to remember te majority of transwomen instead of simply focusing on the very vocal and more extreme of the transactivists.

BungoWomble · 27/08/2016 08:25

Hijack alert - in case anyone relevant is watching and at all interested, attitudes like those shown in Hermione's screenshot are exactly why I gave up on the Greens. That and the obvious middle class wealthy demographic of their membership. Also why I won't touch the disappointing WEP with a bargepole.

BungoWomble · 27/08/2016 08:28

inevitable. It's far easier to guilt trip and bully women into accepting trans women into female sex-segregated spaces.

So true. Oh the irony. We don't want violence, so budge up women or we'll get violent.

Gononsuch · 27/08/2016 08:30

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ApplesinmyPocket · 27/08/2016 08:35

Yes, Selkie, hearing thoughtful, intelligent women described as 'ignorant' riles me too. And it's sometimes accompanied by 'you should educate yourself' - this to women who are well-informed, well-read, and who have clearly done a lot of reading, a lot of research.

" if TW are women then all the rest of the madness logically flows."

Exactly: - "But I only want to have sex with women" - "Transwomen ARE women."

"The rates of 'women's' sexual crimes are going to go up now they are counting transwomen's crimes" - "Transwomen ARE women, so they ARE women's crimes."

I was despairing but the Spartacus thread has given me a little bit of hope. I don't just accept that transpeople should have respect and dignity and every chance of living a life they feel comfortable with, I actively want that to be so - but never should it have got to this point, where we are being badgered to deny biology and accept the untruth that men can ever actually be women.

BungoWomble · 27/08/2016 08:36

Okay... was it the men part that bothered you, or the tongues down each others throat part? I am of the generation that wants to yell 'go find a room fgs'. What consenting adults get up to in private is their own business.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 27/08/2016 08:45

Not really sure what two blokes kissing has to do with anything.

BertrandRussell · 27/08/2016 08:52

Presumably you would have been equally bothered by a man and a woman behaving like that in public? Because otherwise it sounds as if you re a bit homophobic........"

Gononsuch · 27/08/2016 08:57

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BungoWomble · 27/08/2016 09:01

In other news, my dd fell over this morning Hmm. No of course I wouldn't yell, I'd just not look. And try not to look as if I wasn't looking.