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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans Understanding Help

239 replies

Itsallveryconfusing · 26/08/2016 13:29

Hello.

Please be gentle as I'm not very knowledgeable about this but I'm trying to learn.

My eyes have been opened due to the recent threads like the I am Spartacus ones. I have always been very liberal and believed that someone can be born in the wrong body when it comes to makes feeling like a woman etc. I've come to see that gender is more a social concept.

I've been speaking with DH about this who, again, is very liberal and believes in equality and is pro women rights, although his workplace is very male orientated. He's not afraid to argue against the party line that women are weaker emotionally etc. His view on trans is very much live and let live he firmly believes that if someone wants to identify as female or male then they should be allowed to, as it must be awful to feel trapped. He was shocked that my view is changing and that my views are more in standing with hard right wingers who look at equality is a dirty word.

Sorry for the essay but I'm struggling with what I know is correct in my head with the concept that people should be happy and if that makes them happy then I should respect.

OP posts:
WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 27/08/2016 09:06

my dd fell over this morning

I fell over too this morning. Tried to get out of bed - to deal with the toddler - and my leg just gave way. Zero sympathy from the toddler by the way.

Totally nothing to do with this thread but I thought I'd meantion it.Smile

SmilingButClueless · 27/08/2016 09:13

I don't have an issue with transwomen.

I do have an issue with some of the trans activism agenda.

I suspect most transwomen just want to get on with their own lives in peace. I suspect that - at times - I have shared toilet and changing facilities with transwomen. I don't have a particular issue with that, as long as they're not standing on benches and waving their penis around saying "look at me", and I suspect many transwomen would share my distaste with someone doing that.

I am sure that most transwomen, as reasonable human beings, would not object if someone didn't want to have sex with them, or think they "deserved" sex from certain groups of people because of their adopted gender.

I have no issue with using someone's preferred pronouns; that makes no difference to me and seems only polite.

I do think, however, that there are times and places where transwomen cannot be treated in the same way as biological women. Where biological women must be allowed to choose to engage with biological women only (and vice versa). Not because of prejudice, or because of a wish to exclude transwomen, but because of the safety or comfort of the biological woman involved. To be clear: I'm thinking of the kind of limited situation where it is already legal to discriminate based on a protected characteristic e.g. provision of personal care.

But trans activists don't get to define what it means to be a woman. And just saying that you "feel like a woman", without taking any other steps to diminish your previous maleness, does not make it so.

BungoWomble · 27/08/2016 09:40

^^ All this, plus I have an issue with those who want to shut women up about their lived experience. A timely demonstration there from a first time poster.

Gononsuch · 27/08/2016 09:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BertrandRussell · 27/08/2016 09:57

Oh, shut up, gononesuch.

BungoWomble · 27/08/2016 10:45

So, any further comments along the lines of 'people who are trying to deal with not being abused on a daily basis without all this awful bullying'?

BertrandRussell · 27/08/2016 10:48

Bungo- I don't think I quite understand you.......

Miffer · 27/08/2016 10:51

I started off being a little disgruntled by the extreme examples like Fallon Fox and 'The Cotton Ceiling' but this then opened my eyes to the utter bullshit of the whole thing. I was still very much anti-terf (although to be honest 'terf' wasn't something I was familiar with, I was more anti-Germaine Greers comments) when the whole Rachel Dozel thing kicked off. Obviously I was fucking outraged by her behaviour and obviously people compared it to transgenderism(?). I couldn't figure out why it was different (although in my zeal I was SURE it was). So I went and found some articles that argued it was very different and shouldn't be compared, all I found was cognitive dissonance. (example www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/12/comparison-transgender-people-rachel-dolezal)
The truth is it isn't different.

JassyRadlett · 27/08/2016 11:26

I only ever see people saying vile things about transwomen in these kind of discussions

Really? I have several very lovely friends who are trans, one who transitioned a while ago and is massively conflicted about the current trans activist agenda.

She lives with her wife, you see, and both are appalled by the suggestion that they are transphobic if they don't want to have sex with someone with a penis.

And that's my issue with this debate. The terms 'man' and 'woman' are now so hotly contested, people's desire to put everyone in a tidy gender category so strong, that we aren't getting anywhere because terminology gets in the way.

So I've changed tack. For me, this is an issue about physical sex. People who are physically female have good reason to fear people with penises, regardless of how they identify. Statistics bear out that we should fear people with penises more than people without penises.

So from my perspective, the question becomes not how do we treat trans women in relation to women's-only spaces. It's about how much access we give people with penises in places that have traditionally been penis-free.

It's a bit more of a honest debate. And it's amazing how it focuses some people's minds when the more 'comfortable' labels and less accurate descriptors are removed.

venusinscorpio · 27/08/2016 11:33

No I've never seen a decent argument as to why it's different, either Miffer. I'd be interested to hear one, but like you I don't think one exists.

JellyBelli · 27/08/2016 11:34

Theres a difference between wanting your own space and wanting to take someone elses space from them.

There need to be 3 spaces IMO. Women, men and trans men with a penis.

venusinscorpio · 27/08/2016 11:34

Thank you for deleting the troll, MNHQ.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 27/08/2016 12:31

There need to be 3 spaces IMO. Women, men and trans men with a penis

And how do you police this? I'll bet there are some transwomen who pass extremely well but still have a penis. I'll bet there are others who have had bottom surgery who don't pass particularly well.

Who is going to check if people are in the right place?

titchy · 27/08/2016 12:46

You don't need to police it. You just need acceptance that it's a reasonable thing to have.

I'm sure if a bloke or TW got his todger out in the female changing room people would vocally object if there was an accepted place they should be.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 27/08/2016 12:51

I'm sure if a bloke or TW got his todger out in the female changing room people would vocally object if there was an accepted place they should be

So you are happy for a penis to be in the women's changing room as long as no one sees it? So if individual changing cubicles are used (most changing rooms have these) that's ok. Or if it's a fully communal changing room then it's best to change with a towel over the lap to be discrete.
That sounds fair enough.

titchy · 27/08/2016 13:11

I didn't say that Hmm

I just said that you don't need anyone to police toilet usage. No one polices toilet usage now do they? It polices itself.

Currently women and leisure centre managers are unwilling to challenge TW behaving threateningly in female changing rooms because they don't want to be accused of being phobic. Having a third facility and a requirement to use said facility would mean people would feel able to object.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 27/08/2016 13:56

No one polices toilet usage now do they? It polices itself

I've been in women's toliets 4 times in the last 2 years when a man has also been there. 2 cleaners, 2 gay men - no one cared.
But the self regulating toliet isn't always man free. No idea if I've shared toliets with

Currently women and leisure centre managers are unwilling to challenge TW behaving threateningly in female changing rooms because they don't want to be accused of being phobic

I would hope that management treat a threatening transwoman the same way they would treat a threatening woman and ask her to leave / call the police depending on what she did.

BertrandRussell · 27/08/2016 14:10

2 gay men- how on earth could you tell and why on earth were they in the women's loo???????

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 27/08/2016 14:21

They said they were gay (two completely separate occasions)

One said I'm with my friend (female). The other said I just can't stand the blokes loos, they are filthy. it was a while ago so that's not verbatim but that's the gist

Both times were nights out and no one cared.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 27/08/2016 14:23

To be fair the cleaners could have been gay too. You are right I can't tell by looking at someone.

ChocChocPorridge · 27/08/2016 15:57

At the moment it's the honour system - we believe that you're actually a woman/man if you're in the womens'/mens' toilets, and that's worked fine. Polite, trans women, not causing a fuss, have been in the womens' changing rooms, not causing trouble, and we've, similarly politely and not making a fuss, not worried about it.

Then trans activists came along and started demanding that rather than a privilege earned by being polite, access to women's changing rooms was a right of transwomen - and women went - 'hang on, no, it really isn't' - especially not if you're planning to wander around the changing rooms naked with our girl children, or force them all to change in front of you.

venusinscorpio · 27/08/2016 15:58

I think people often go in the wrong sex loos in nightclubs or bars after a few drinks. It doesn't make it right, but people aren't as bothered.

venusinscorpio · 27/08/2016 15:59

And choc sums up exactly what the issue is.

brasty · 27/08/2016 16:42

I have been in a women's toilet when gay men have been there. I very much minded and told them so.