Apparently, women with vaginas are "cuntscum."

[WombOfOnesOwn]

thetab.com/uk/edinburgh/2016/08/18/edinburghs-lgbt-convenor-said-i-sure-hope-police-die-today-24996

This lovely person was elected to represent LGBT students. What a stunning and brave example they present.

That is not reality though. Misgender someone and you will be pounced. On say something misogynistic, lesbophobic or anti jewish and you will get excused or it will be minimised.

Saw a great meme earlier. It was about Trans being the cuckoo in the LGBT nest. Definitely a touch of "One Flew Over" here. And MNHQ have gorn and drunken the cucKool-Aid.

A shame. MN has the opportunity to be progressive here, and ahead of the game. Fear not. There are quite a few other places where conversation is being turned around again on this. MNs loss, but if they can't be progressive, they aren't ready to host this sort of conversation. Same way that they aren't ready for their latest pet project on disability. Whilst they allow so much ablism/disablism to go on here, and clearly offensive posts on the subject to stand on here, they will never have credibility for their campaign. They are only hurting themselves because they are making themselves look at best, lacking in awareness on disability issues, at worst, ablist/disablist. And here - inconsistent, homophobic and complicit in misogyny. The ball is firmly in their court.

Matilda great analogy!

I think many would argue that it is, in itself, hate speech

How? It's their personal view of themselves, entirely debatable, and moreover open to every shit stirring little twat who isn't actually trans who decides to claim the same. How can it be hate speech not to lie and say you think a man is a woman when obviously nothing could be further from the truth?

It's a ridiculous argument.

And to be honest, the whole trans issue seems to me to be a mass exercise in gas lighting women. And now MN has joined in.

When is a man a woman? Whenever he fucking says so.

"But that's a penis?" "No, it's a lady penis".

"What does she call herself". "She" doesn't, it's "they". "They call themselves "they". "

"But....that doesn't make sense?" "Okay, you've JUST murdered another Transwoman with your literal violence there"

"Ummmm what now?" "You've literally just killed transwomen by misgendering them"

"Misgendering?" "How very dare you. Kill all the police"

"Hokay........"

Indeed, Vicki.

YY Vicki. Yet to see proof of any literal violence yet it's peddled endlessly by TA

I don't think the problem was using 'they' as that is what Ada themself requested.

I think the misgendering must have been posters using 'he'. Very interesting point made on the other thread though that there didn't seem to be an issue with using 'she', which surely is just as 'misgendering'.

Marking place here too

Misgendering is violence, because by using "he" instead of "she" one is refusing to acknowledge that the individual in question is not a woman, and therefore that woman doesn't exist so by dint of using the wrong pronoun one has "killed" the woman - is that right?

All a bit "I don't believe in fairies" for me

The thread was deleted because posters constantly used 'he' to refer to Ada and called them a man.
If you do that on mumsnet these days you will get deleted. That's fairly well understood I thought. That has been the case for some time. I use 'they' when referring to all self described trans and non binary people on here because having posts deleted is annoying. Doesn't mean I mean it.

oleannas I think the "logic" of misgendering = violence is that by misgendering people you are contributing to a toxic environment of understanding facts and biology which leads to violence towards trans people and trans self harm/suicide.

Completely fucking ignoring that it is men who hurt trans people, not women or words on the fucking Internet.

Broom, it was put back up with all of the "he/him's" deleted. Then the whole thread went after it was derailed.

Yy to "I don't believe in fairies"!!

I treat trans activism the way I treat religion, too, Matilda.

I'm an atheist. When I'm discussing religious matters, I do my religious friends the courtesy of referring to God, and not "your invisible sky friend". I respect their right to hold their beliefs as they see fit, but I need not in any way respect the content of those beliefs.

Same with trans. You may believe in the existence of a female brain in a man's body. I can't gainsay your belief, it's your to hold. But I don't have to share it, because it flies in the face of what I believe about the world, and the science, as with God, tends to back up my version. If all you're fighting for is the right to hold your belief and suffer no oppression because of the fact that you hold it, I'm cool with that. Have at it. No objections from here.

But, to stretch the religious analogy to breaking point, the second that you start to try to impose your beliefs on me, by inserting religion into my life, by insisting that I live by its rules, then frankly, all bets are off. As with transactivism - I will resist any attempts made by AFTAs to reshape the world into a one that suppresses my ability to live my life freely and express my thoughts, or that tries to roll back hard won freedoms for women. I will vigorously defend my rights as a woman, because goodness only knows the world isn’t short of people trying to shit all over them.

FreshWater Selkie - I wish there was the opportunity to "like" your post.

It should be treated like a religion everywhere - there is as much proof of God as there is of a someone being born "in the wrong body"!

And as a (mostly, though I'd prefer more so) secular society, it should have no influence on everyday life. Can you imagine if one extreme religion took over and we all had to pander to their beliefs?

Thanks tequila, it came out a bit garbled as I was distracted in the middle of typing...

I do believe the rise in transactivism shares a lot of qualities with religious movements. You have your moderates - dysphoric people who just want to get on with their lives as best they can. I don't think anyone with a shred of compassion can wish otherwise for that group than that we find ways to peacefully co-exist and respect each others positions.

Then we have the extremists -Ada and those who behave in similar ways, who can't tolerate dissent, who wish everyone to live according to their beliefs, and who resort to manipulation and threats of violence when disagreed with. That position is untenable, because it requires people not just to compromise, live and let live, but to submit to a set of rules that not only do they not agree with, but that fundamentally compromises their own ability to live peacefully and according to their lights.

I will never accept that transwomen can compete in women's sport without diminishing women in the process, for example. I will never accept that lesbians may not assert their bodily autonomy and right to assemble together without male born people. I can't accept these any more than I could accept that I have to submit to religious prescriptions to participate in civil life. Neither of those make me a bigot.

The problem with using "they" is that misunderstandings easily happen. Does "they" refer to a particular transperson currently under discussion, or to transpeople in general?

Accidental and deliberate misunderstandings are easy. Maybe time for a new pronoun?

And another one endorsing Selkie's posts. And her right to self identify as a seal............

Oh. Sorry to hear that but her posts have been getting a bit aggressive towards TGs.

Selkies are people too

Was that to me, Rich?

This is my first post on this subject so be gentle with me if I have some of the language wrong.For me, I agree with having respect for others beliefs and lifestyles/ views of the world as long as it does not erode others' rights or is abusive or divisive to others. Personally I would go as far to say being trans exists because it is a fact that people transition , I think for me, iit is a symptom of rigid gender roles. I think the some of the gains LGB have made over the last twenty years re acceptance has had an impact on our culture being more mainstreamed and trans is not in the same place. I also don't agree with discrimination in any form either to or by trans people. hating each other's differences will not solve anything. I think there has to be a distinction made between trans people generally and trans activist with views like Ada and I don't think those of us who oppose this help the debate by discussing whether the pronouns people choose to use etc. It is a really challenge I think to harness the sense of injustice and passion about rights into a positive force to increase equality for all.

My daughter is going to Edinburgh Uni in September and will be joining this society or something like it and I wish for her to have a positive experience of being out in a new city, starting a fresh life with other students , getting some support but also sharing the right of passage re passionate arguments about politics including LGBTQ issues and feminism without fear and unhealthy conflict. I remember with a sense of awe how getting involved in feminism at uni completely changed my life!

"I will never accept that transwomen can compete in women's sport without diminishing women in the process, for example. I will never accept that lesbians may not assert their bodily autonomy and right to assemble together without male born people".

Likewise Freshwater but i dont seriously think you need to worry on these counts.

What, I don't need to worry because I'm a part time seal and I'm excluded from sport anyway because of my flippers? Why don't I need to worry?