MN deleted thread

[ThreadandInk]

I feel sorry for the team at HQ. They deleted the thread about the bathroom issue, and posted this:

"Message from MNHQ: We have removed this thread following several reports.
This thread had personal attacks, general nastiness and transphobic posts on it and we felt that what began as an interesting discussion, became a bit of a slanging match and so we felt it best to remove it."

I agree that the thread did include these. However it also included genuine discussion, cries for help, abused women trying to make their voices heard.

By deleting the whole thread, rather than just the bad, you are telling these women to shut up and put up.

Louw1988 - most of the discrimination women face is hidden. Living in a society where sexism exists on almost every level (as several mountains of research show that it does) means if you are an adult female it is almost impossible not to have experienced discrimination, even if you weren't aware of it happening. One example would be the fact that doctors and health care professionals have been found to take male people more seriously and to actually accept what they say they are experiencing more fully than is the case for women. So as a woman there will almost definitely have been times when you received suboptimal treatment - when you had to suffer symptoms for longer than a man would have simply because you were written off as probably exaggerating. There are many other ways in which you have undoubtedly been considered less than, worse than, not as good as a man by people without you ever having known it. Research shows that this happens throughout society and that we still have a long way to go even if we can't always see discrimination as it's happening.

With regard to "open to transgender people" I don't think it's fair to dismiss gender critical people as not being "open to transgender people". Very few on here want transgender people to face discrimination, ridicule or nastiness on account of how they choose to live their lives. We simply wish to have the right to be able to tell the truth about them in that a transman is female and a transwoman is male, by the definitions you will find in pretty much every dictionary and medical textbook out there. When people react in ways that you seem to deem "closed" it is rarely on account of prejudice but on account of the experiences we have had with the transgender community. The death threats, rape threats issued by transwomen to natal women are disturbing and inform many mumsnetters opinions about what this community wants and how they are trying to get it. Many started off with your opinions but have changed their minds on account of greater knowledge of what is currently going on in the trans community.

What wanting said (very eloquently).

It sounds like you have been very lucky louw. I am glad it is possible to have that somewhere. Hopefully I can work towards my dd being able to take such things for granted too. In the meantime those of us who have been less lucky can perhaps see the need to support women even more damaged by the system more clearly, and rightly start complaining when yet another bunch of men turn up telling us to stop supporting women, and make yet more room for them instead - and, as typical males, start insulting us when we do not leap fast enough to comply.

Perhaps this is interesting to those who wish to be trans allies; transwoman rants on the transing of kids:

Perhaps trans allies should take into consideration that this person is trans, too.
You cannot be an ally to all trans people. You could as well choose to be an ally to those who acknowledge reality.

Lou I actually found an article the other week regarding women and hospitals.

If a man went into hospital with stomach pains, they immediately look to see the cause. Appendix and the like.

If a woman was to go in, it can take up to 8 hours before the investigate as its put down to menstration issues at first.

Now that is a classic case of sexism. How is that fair or right? It isn't.

Lou - I had somewhat similar notions that women's equality was a done deal, because I'd never experienced discrimination. However, when I began to consider the realities of many women's lives I realised that this 'I'm alright, Jill' attitude of mine just wasn't good enough.

I've never experienced FGM, being a child bride, not being allowed to drive, not having access to sanpro etc so those things must not exist

Or....I recognise those things do exist And I've been incredibly fortunate not to experience them so I use my education, voice and relative wealth to support and campaign for women and girls less fortunate than me

Which one makes me the twat?

Where were you called a twat Hermione?

Nobody has called me a twat, it was a question about which of those mindsets would make me a twat

Thanks ladies for not biting my head off, I'm fully aware that discrimination does happen but as I've said I've been lucky

My sister is a prime example why woman are treated different when it comes to doctors and hospitals because unfortunately it's woman like her who go over the slightest of things!
I've had the same doctor since birth and he knows when I go I'm being serious but those types of woman make the rest of us look like hypercondreacts
It's like a post I replied to the other day regarding adhd - some people do play on there children to get the diagnosis and this is why when someone says my child has adhd the first thing people ask is it really adhd or naughtiness, I'm not for one second saying it's always just naughtiness but people playing it make the stereotype unfortunately
Same with benifits, those who do work cash in hand and play the system give genuine people in need of benefits a bad name
So my view is it's not always a sexist thing it's the stereotypes that come along with everything
I'm the typical working mum stereotype so that makes me a heartless mum who puts work before her children in some people's eyes - far from true but the label is there iykwim

It's like a post I replied to the other day regarding adhd - some people do play on there children to get the diagnosis and this is why when someone says my child has adhd the first thing people ask is it really adhd or naughtiness, I'm not for one second saying it's always just naughtiness but people playing it make the stereotype unfortunately

I can see why that was deleted as it could be seen as disabilist and it doesn't help to break the stereotypical view of "it isn't adhd. He is just naughty and needs better parenting"

However for every child that has ADHD for the reason to play up and it being genuine, there will always be one person who uses it as an excuse for every little problem.

Lou ... There are men who are hypochondriacs too, you know ...are you saying that women are more likely to fall victim to negative stereotyping because of the behaviour of a few? The examples unthread were not the result of hypochondria anyway.

Lou - you could have simplified your argument into "women are their own worst enemies".

NeedACleverNN Based on personal experience there ARE some people who do not discapline their children and claim it's ADHD when I know it's all an excuse to get DLA - I'm fully aware it is not the case the majority of the time but the sad fact is it does and has Happen which is why people are posting threads asking if they will always face that question. My response was exactly that, my experience. I wasn't rude and started I know full well it's not always the case so I wasn't accusing anyone on the thread of doing it. Since when are posts deleted for stating facts?

Queen - unfortunately SOMETIMES they are not always and not everyone but so are men thier own worst enemy at times too. Again it's fact

But Lou, there are mountains of research that shows that your sister is NOT the reason women are treated differently by doctors. The reason is sexist discrimination, by both male and female health care professionals. Both men and women can be hypochondriacs as Errol says. If someone who has no known history of hypochondria goes to the doctor and says "I am in excruciating pain, what can you do for me?" studies have shown that they will be taken more seriously simply for being read as a male. A female is more likely to be told to take some asprin, a male more likely to be prescribed serious pain killers or referred to a consultant. This is all documented by decades worht of studies in various different fields. Sexism is real.

You whole argument is extremely sexist. I'm staggered.

wantingresults But surely if a man goes to the doctors with stomach pains there is not as many possible reasons for it and therefore the concentrate on the most likely. Woman can have many reasons why they would have stomach pains and it is bound to take longer to diagnose? That's not being rude or mean it's just looking at other possible reasons?

Queen I don't mean to be sexist it's not my intention at all, just trying to see things from both angles hence why I said men are too
Not sure how from that you find me sexist?

It's not just various reasons that women are discounted Lou

It's downplayed a lot because "women cry. It's what they do." According to a lot of doctors. Therefore the fact they are in a lot of agony and sobbing in pain, it's still not taken as serious as a man.

That is sexist

What I'm talking about though is health care professionals downplaying the woman's pain ("you say it's unbearable but just go home and fill yourself a nice hot water bottle and make yourself a nice cup of hot tea and I'm sure you'll feel better in no time") while taking the man's pain seriously ("you say it's unbearable, that doesn't sound good. I'm going to recommend you get straight to a and e and I'll book you in for x, y and z scans in the next week). Even when the reported symptoms are the same, even when there is no history of hypochondria in either case and even when there is no biological reason that a hot water bottle and a nice cup of tea should be more appropriate for the woman or where proper intervention would be more appropriate for the man.

wantingresults The original point about the doctors though wernt go home with a hot water bottle it was that it takes 8 hours and men is quicker, hence why I said with men there is less problems it could be and therefore be quicker
If you had your scenario and the woman got sent home I would say that was extremely unfair!

I don't understand what you mean Lou. What takes 8 hours?

If you are comparing like for like men have been shown to receive superior treatment merely because they are men, when it would have cost the same in time and money to provide identical treatment to a woman with an identical problem. The scenario I gave is representative of what research shows happens throughout society, day in, day out in all sorts of areas. It's not fair but it's the society we live in.

Actually, so many men are hypochonders that it is a well-known phenomenon. Men act like they are dying when they have a little cold. I think it is called the man-flu. It is so common that women are frequently making fun of it.

Men are still taken more seriously by doctors. Because of patriarchy. Because of sexism.

wantingresults The 8 hour comment was from someone upthread when unfair medical Treatment was first mentioned

Everything else aside Lou you need to stop with the 'people pretend their kids have ADD to get benefits' shit. That's bullshit and it's extremely offensive. This site does not tolerate that crap. Many parents here have children with SEN. I work in a school. You don't just get a diagnosis for ADHD then start raking in the benefits. It takes a long time to get a diagnosis and to get proper provision in place.

Stop talking out of your arse. And I don't care if that comes across as aggressive. There has been a huge debate about the way people talk about children with SEN on here lately and it's being clamped down on.

Thanks Lou - I take your point that yes, sometimes there are solid reasons that women and men are treated differently but the point I'm trying to make is that even when these are controlled for, in situations where there could be no logical justification for treating a male differently to a female, the male is likely to get superior treatment simply for being a male. There are studies which show that males are privileged over females simply on account of their being male in most areas, even in 2016. Until the studies stop showing this is happening we have to keep fighting against it.

I'm not sure how women can have a greater variety of problems with stomach pains than a man. Stomachs are all the same

I doubt I'd ever meet a woman who thinks the pain in her uterus is a stomach pain. They're as similar as chalk and cheese