Not feminist enough if you're heterosexual.

[TheRealPosieParker]

This is something I've found repeatedly lately. Frankly I'm fucked off with it. In last few weeks I've been called a breeder, that I have shitty kids, that I spewed my kids from my arse, that I'm a handmaiden.

FFS. I may as well just abandon feminism as actually men so treat me better, on a personal level, than many feminists.

What sort of feminism decides that heterosexual women are deserving of this vitriol? That mothers are all a bunch of handmaidens? That wearing make up is more anti feminist than telling a mother her kids are shitty?

Every time it happens I am genuinely shocked.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Archery do you really hope that women don't own anything in their own name...don't expect bodily autonomy etc. because they reject the feminist movement?

Women are entitled to bodily autonomy and equal human rights because they are human. Whether they're feminists or not.

[BloodyDifficultWoman]

I'd love to see links to the online feminist spaces people are recommending, eg ChocChocPudding. (Apologies if they're bookmarked already somewhere.)

[VestalVirgin]

Women are entitled to bodily autonomy and equal human rights because they are human. Whether they're feminists or not.

But women who are not feminists don't believe that they should have those rights.

While I do not see a problem with them having bodily autonomy and so on, I do see a problem with them having voting rights.
I mean, we cannot change that, obviously, but it is a bit like people who hate democracy having voting rights - they can use their right to vote (which they never fought for in the first place, in case of female antifeminists) to take OUR right to vote away. It's just not right. They shouldn't be able to use a right feminists fought for them to have to work against feminism.

I hope that at least some antifeminists really don't vote, but the famous female politicians in the AfD and similar right-wing parties prove that some women are perfectly okay with using the rights they would not have without feminism to achieve deeply misogynist goals.

[VestalVirgin]

"Well, technically, if the human species dies out, there can be no patriarchy. If one only wants to smash patriarchy, but not build a feminist utopia, it is a way to achieve the goal.
There might be some people who want to save non-human species and would be in favour of this method".

Vestal isn't that rather like turkeys voting for Christmas?

No, it is more like turkeys voting for the annihilation of the planet earth. It would stop turkeys from existing, but it would also stop them being slaughtered for Christmas, because humans would not exist anymore either.

... perhaps you should consider this when having turkey for Christmas. I am not sure they are all as willing to suffer as we human females. If the chance comes for them to betray us to an alien species ... well.

[supersoftcuddlytoys]

I'm not in the least anti-feminist, just anti the 3rd wave kind. They're working to advance their own rather misanthropic, paranoid world-view and not the interests of all women. Just look at the OP's experience with Bindel!

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

I think when people say they "reject the feminist movement" what they mean is they reject what the feminist movement has become, or the way the feminist movement is going.

Or possibly not.

[VestalVirgin]

I think when people say they "reject the feminist movement" what they mean is they reject what the feminist movement has become, or the way the feminist movement is going.

I think those meek (well, in their relations to men) women who say "Yes, yes, voting rights are nice, but radical feminism is too radical" never really stopped to think about how the suffragettes fought for voting rights, and how asking nicely never helped any.

With the recent movie about the Suffragette movement, I hope some have become a bit more enlightened on just what measure of force was necessary to get voting rights, but sadly, the movie ommitted the anti-feminist propaganda of the time - which was exactly the same "Waahh, suffragists are female supremacists!" wailing as we hear nowadays from antifeminists (who may, or may not, define their antifeminism as being against "modern feminism")

[IamNotDarling]

Can someone please explain the theory about PIV being damaging to women? Thanks

[CreativeUsername]

Feminists are much worse to some groups of people that aren't cis hetro women

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

I think those meek (well, in their relations to men) women who say...

To call women who disagree with your way of thinking "meek", or indeed any other insult, is a tad misogynistic.

[VestalVirgin]

Can someone please explain the theory about PIV being damaging to women? Thanks

It has been some time since I read about that, but it is rather straightforward.

We know that PIV causes pregnancy, which for most women counts as "damage" most of the time - after all, those of us who want children often don't want more than 2 or 3. That is, depending on how fertile you are, a maximum of 3 years of PIV where that consequence of PIV is not damaging but the intended result.

Most contraception methods take a toll on the health of the woman who uses them, and they are not 100% reliable.

PIV also causes urinary tract infections and transmits a number of STDs that cause no or only mild symptoms in men.

Many women do not orgasm from PIV.

And despite all this, PiV is equated with sexual pleasure, to the point that other ways to experience sexual pleasure are not considered "sex" but "foreplay", etc.

From what I remember, the theory also goes into detail about the psychological effects of the constant fear of unwanted pregnancy that comes as a side effect of PIV, etc. If you are interested, you should be able to find something more detailed via google.

[TheRealPosieParker]

Creative. Are you talking about actual women here? As I'm talking about being a female feminist not being trans.

I'm wondering why you e bothered posting?

[supersoftcuddlytoys]

MilkTwoSugars That's exactly what I'm saying - thank you. Plus no one has benefited more or appreciates more the achievements of feminist movement of the past, more than I do. But today I think these different 3rd wave groups are misguided.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

Will read the thread in a sec, but I have seen (though not experienced, I'm scared to get involved tbh :( ) this in radfem spaces. Not just aimed at hetero but at bi too. I've seen a lot of comments where bisexual people are lumped in with the 'bigoted' G and T ("us lesbians want our own space free of the bigoted GBT" for eg), with any comments about that not being exactly accurate thrown a "not-all-men " at.

I understand some of the debates from a theoretical angle, but I specifically mean personal comments here.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

And now I'm gonna RTFT

[DioneTheDiabolist]

OP, I find it sad, but not unsurprising that this happened to you. Some feminists are arseholes. And some hold misogynistic views as demonstrated on this thread. It's disheartening but don't let them put you off.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

Yy. To muddle with a quote...
Some people are feminists, some people are arseholes.
Some feminists are arseholes.

[sausageeggbacon111]

I identify as a liberal feminist, I have real issues with some of the more radical elements. We complain (rightly) when men silence our life experiences and yet if a radical feminist (political lesbian or whatever) silences another women on issues we accept it. Take the two guest blog posts one by a woman who has lived the life and has an understanding and the other by a radical feminist with a book to sell working on second or third hand anecdotal evidence that mirrors her beliefs. It was like looking at a man silencing me for explaining being a woman yet it was roundly cheered by a lot of people.

As for Bindel what makes me laugh is the fact her work is so appalling yet she thinks ever word she says should be enshrined on a tablet (the old style rock ones). I have seen critiques of her work and her questionable research practices when the result was decided before the research was done it seems. I have only read a couple of her works but they were enough to make me question anything she says or does.

OP you may not always like my opinions but I do feel for you in this situation. I am lucky enough to not need to work and can so volunteer with the attitude I will do what I can to help, my choice is third world countries and be proud of my kids and if Bindel don't like it well I wont be crying myself to sleep.

[Gothgirl78]

I agree with sausageggandbacon. Other women silencing or belittling other women because they don't like their particular brand of feminism is appalling.

Feminism is a belief system. Although there are self appointed "Popes" , it's not science.

[supersoftcuddlytoys]

Bindel might be an unpleasant individual with some rather "strident" ideas. But I do agree with her frustration with the 'progressive' left and feminists who defend and offer succour to Islamofascism. She often gets attacked for that in fact.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Take the two guest blog posts one by a woman who has lived the life and has an understanding and the other by a radical feminist with a book to sell working on second or third hand anecdotal evidence that mirrors her beliefs. It was like looking at a man silencing me for explaining being a woman yet it was roundly cheered by a lot of people

I have posted on both those threads. I am not going to repeat what I said but the shorthand version is I oppose the idea of anything which legitimises the idea that prostitution a legitimate job like any other.

My view is not fashioned by any feminist, religious or right-wing ideology. Normalising prostitution is incompatible with human dignity and society as a whole is coarsened and demeaned by tolerating it.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Other women silencing or belittling other women because they don't like their particular brand of feminism is appalling

I have no "brand of feminism" I disagree vehemently with anyone, male or female who seeks to normalise prostitution and make it socially acceptable.

The OP, Posie and I frequently disagree on many subjects. We have probably both been rude to each other in the past - that is hardly "silencing or belittling"

[supersoftcuddlytoys]

Yes but saying someone has shitty kids, that they spewed from their arse I mean, come on , that's a bit more than being rude isn't it?

More like horribly aggressive and hateful ~ IMO.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Yes- that is horrible. Not suggesting it is anything other than horrible.