Not feminist enough if you're heterosexual.

[TheRealPosieParker]

This is something I've found repeatedly lately. Frankly I'm fucked off with it. In last few weeks I've been called a breeder, that I have shitty kids, that I spewed my kids from my arse, that I'm a handmaiden.

FFS. I may as well just abandon feminism as actually men so treat me better, on a personal level, than many feminists.

What sort of feminism decides that heterosexual women are deserving of this vitriol? That mothers are all a bunch of handmaidens? That wearing make up is more anti feminist than telling a mother her kids are shitty?

Every time it happens I am genuinely shocked.

It's never happened to me, and is not a reflection of feminism, but of someone being an arse.

It's happened to me a lot in medical feminist space.

Julie Bindel told me I was a middle class breeder who probably bored people with stories about my kids. (This was when I criticised her article about having paid leave for caring for dogs like parents do.... because actually very few parents, including those who have kids with cancer, get paid leave)

Radical.... not medical.

I'm sorry this has happened to you. I've happily never come across it before - I'd agree with it being a reflection of people being arses and not people being feminists. I don't know any lesbian or bi woman who would call a straight woman a "breeder" - not least because many have kids themselves. Having kids isn't confined to straight people, and if the people insulting you had more than two minutes' experience of feminist activism, they would know this.

I really feel so utterly demoralised.

well, I have come across this but not for about 30 years! and then from quite a narrow group of separatists

They're not saying because they're feminists, they're saying it because they're not very nice people.

I should add that I have had this from one bi woman, that she's a better feminist than me because I have let women down by breeding 'for a man' she was indeed a feminist but also an arsehole.

Interesting viewpoint. They don't see the continuation of the species as necessary for feminism?

They've seemingly infiltrated most radical feminist spaces lately. They direct so much vitriol toward straight women particularly straight mothers. They'll criticise me having kids because I'm with a man, but not a lesbian who has kids. Because kids within a straight relationship are actually worse for the planet.

PIV sex is rape? Yep that one too.

How feminists should choose to be political lesbians too.

I'm surprised that some women haven't come across this to be honest! I have tried participating in radical feminist groups etc but I definitely face resistance for being a mother and being in a hetero relationship. It's also where woman meet resistance for requesting crèche or childcare at feminist conferences or meet ups: it's often the radical feminists who conveniently have a blind spot for women's unpaid labour when it comes to childcare and how this stops us actually participating in society and politics. Sending solidarity OP

TheRealPosieParker Daphne Patai refers to this particular nastiness as 'Heterophobia'. Google her up - she's brilliant.

"it's often the radical feminists who conveniently have a blind spot for women's unpaid labour when it comes to childcare and how this stops us actually participating in society and politics." On the contrary, radical feminism very much recognises the contribution of women's unpaid labour.

Lesbian separatism is a theory that recognises that heterosexual relationships can be damaging to women. There is also the theory that PIV is inherently damaging to women. They are both valid. You don't have to follow them. Nobody is forcing you to.

I would say that being in a relationship with a man isn't a particularly radical feminist act. But being deliberately offensive and nasty to women who are where they are is not particularly feminist.

I've actually seen most of the vitriol against mothers from liberal feminists. Young, white, privileged.

I've heard of political lesbianism, but I participate in a couple of radical spaces online, and many of us are mothers and grandmothers, many are lesbian, and I've never seen any of this spouted - in fact everyone is very understanding of the pressures of motherhood, and the impact it has on every aspect of your life, and how important that makes feminism

I'm sorry people in spaces you're in are behaving like this towards you - there are definitely places I don't go because of bad attitudes towards me because of various aspects, please don't feel that it's hopeless or universal - there are much nice places out there too that you can still have critical discussion in.

Am Googling Daphne Patai!

I had a link to a brilliant essay of her but I just tried it and it doesn't work anymore. I was going to post you it. Her book on this subject is well worth a read. Pretty scathing though...

As with any political/philosophical movement, there is a range of viewpoints within feminism. It's up to feminists to understand the viewpoints (properly) and decide what seems to fit for them. People who are openly hostile to others, call other people names etc are just plain arseholes though, that has nothing to do with feminism.

Honestly, Posie, I think you just need new feminist friends! The radical feminists I know are the ones slogging away organising creches (on a budget of tuppence) for every event!

I've actually seen most of the vitriol against mothers from liberal feminists. Young, white, privileged.

Me, too. It's the hip PoMo crowd who dismiss women talking about children as "mommy bloggers", and so on. We just aren't ~edgy~ enough for them, although naturally, they aren't so much edgy as boringly conservative.

PoMo? I Googled it and found nothing?

Interesting that you both mention liberal feminist.... they can F off too.... Tis most of them.

They'll criticise me having kids because I'm with a man, but not a lesbian who has kids. Because kids within a straight relationship are actually worse for the planet.

Interestingly, I read somewhere that children conceived by artificial means are more likely to be boys. And as we all know, there's too many men on the planet (or too few women, depending on the way you look at it), so that's a bad thing.

Perhaps you can use this little fact next time someone finds your (presumably naturally conceived) hetero-relationship-children so much worse.

Interesting viewpoint. They don't see the continuation of the species as necessary for feminism?

Well, technically, if the human species dies out, there can be no patriarchy. If one only wants to smash patriarchy, but not build a feminist utopia, it is a way to achieve the goal.
There might be some people who want to save non-human species and would be in favour of this method.

PoMo = post modernist = choosey-choice and sex pos, trans women are actual women and sex work is just a job like shelf stacking.

do people still talk about 'putting energy into men'?
I remember one of these separatists explaining how fed up she was of supporting straight women because ultimately that was putting energy into men
(this may have been the woman who insisted her dog was a lesbian)